what I don't get is the logic of using an extremely rigid game, the most rigid edition that D&D has ever produced, to ignore and interpret powers and rules in a completely wild fashion, for once, and even stranger, refusing to do it for games which are much more open.
4e D&D is not rigid, in my experience of it. That seems to be something you're bringing to it.
And I have no idea what you're talking about in relation to MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic. Are you familiar with that system? For a start, it doesn't have powers that need to be interpreted; and fictional positioning plays a completely different role in action declaration and resolution compared to 4e D&D.
Well, simply put, this is because you are not reading the rules. In the PH and the DMG, which are the basic resources, Skill Challenges are ONLY about skills:
- PH: Your goal is to accumulate a specific number of victories (usually in the form of successful skill checks) before you get too many defeats (failed checks). It’s up to you to think of ways you can use your skills to meet the challenges you face.
- DMG: Skill Challenges: When characters make skill checks in response to a series of changing conditions, with success or failure being uncertain, they’re in a skill challenge. What skills naturally contribute to the solution of the challenge? How do characters use these skills in the challenge?
I have never really read the DMG2, but scanning it quickly, it's mostly more of the same.
The following passages are found in the 4e DMGs and PHB (and
@Ovinomancer has already referred to one of them):
PHB p 259
In a skill challenge, your goal is to accumulate a certain number of successful skill checks before rolling too many failures. Powers you use might give you bonuses on your checks, make some checks unnecessary, or otherwise help you through the challenge. Your DM sets the stage for a skill challenge by describing the obstacle you face and giving you some idea of the options you have in the encounter. Then you describe your actions and make checks until you either successfully complete the challenge or fail.
Chapter 5 describes the sorts of things you can attempt with your skills in a skill challenge. You can use a wide variety of skills, from Acrobatics and Athletics to Nature and Stealth. You might also use combat powers and ability checks. The Dungeon Master’s Guide contains rules for designing and running skill challenges.
DMG p 64
It’s also a good idea to think about other options the characters might exercise and how these might influence the course of the challenge. Characters might have access to utility powers or rituals that can help them. These might allow special uses of skills, perhaps with a bonus. Rituals in particular might grant an automatic success or remove failures from the running total.
DMG2 p 86, under the heading ""Allow Options Besides Skills"
Characters can use powers and sometimes rituals in the midst of a skill challenge, and plenty of other tactics (such as bribery and combat) might alter the circumstances of a skill challenge, sometimes dramatically.
A good rule of thumb is to treat these other options as if they were secondary skills in the challenge. . . . A character who performs a relevant ritual or uses a daily power deserves to notch at least 1 success towards the party's goal.
DMG 2 p 85
Secondary skills don't always directly contribut to the group's success, but they can hve other important effects. For example, a successful check with a secondary skill can accomplish one of the following effects:
* Cancel out failure with another skill.
* Give one or more characters a bonus to a check with a primary skill.
* Allow a character to reroll another skill check.
* Open up the use of another skill in the challenge.
* Increase the maximum number of successes that a primary skill can contribute to the party's total.
In my experience it's that fourth dot point that is most significant - the use of a power changes or adds to the fiction in such a way as to open up the use of a skill, or allow a skill to be used in a different way from what would otherwise be possible. Some examples from actual play:
The bear encounter
The scenario I ran yesterday (from the Eden Odyssesy d20 book called "Wonders Out of Time") called for a Large bear.
I wasn't sure exactly how many 10th level PCs would be facing it at once, and so in prepping I placed a single elite level 13 dire bear, rather than a lower level solo bear
<snip>
As it turns out, the whole party encountered the bear. I didn't want to do any re-statting on the fly, so stuck with the level 13 elite. They players decided that their PCs would try to tame and befriend the bear instead of fighting it. To keep the XP and pacing about the same as I'd planned, I decided to run this as a level 13 complexity 2 skill challenge
<snip>
The ranger and the wizard made Nature checks. The ranger was adjacent, so reached out to the bear. The wizard, however, was at range, giving rise to the question - how does he actually calm the bear? Answer: he used Ghost Sound to make soothing noises and Mage Hand to stroke it. The sorcerer wanted (i) to back away so as not to get slammed in case the bear remained angry, and (ii) to try and intimidate the bear into submission. I (as GM) asked the player how, exactly, the PC was being intimidating while backing up? His answer: he is expending Spark Form (a lightning-based encounter power) to create a show of magical power arcing between his staff and his dagger, that would scare the bear. A successful Intimidate roll confirmed that the light show did indeed tend to subdue rather than enrage the bear.
Two revelations had the biggest immediate impact. One involved the PCs' principal enemy. This is the leader of the hobgoblins, a powerful wizard called Paldemar (but called Golthar in Goblinish). The PCs learned that in the town he is not known to be a villain, but is apparently well-thought of, is an important scholar and astrologer, is an advisor to the Baron, and is engaged to the Baron's niece. The PCs (and the players) became worried that he might be at dinner that evening. This was a worry for two reasons - (i) they didn't really want to fight him, and (ii) they know some secrets about an ancient minotaur kingdom that he does not, but has been trying to discover. One of those secrets involves a magic tapestry that the PCs carry around with them (becaue they don't have anywhere safe to leave it).
The dinner
The PCs arrived late, and were the last ones there. On the high table they could see the Baron, and his sister and brother-in-law, and also Paldemar, their wizard enemy. They left their more gratuitous weapons - a halberd for the dwarf and a longbow for the ranger - with the dwarf's herald - an NPC dwarf minion called Gutboy Barrelhouse - and took their seats at the high table. Gutboy was also carrying the backpack with the tapestry.
<snip>
About this time the players started talking about the skill checks they wanted to make, and I asked them what they were hoping to achieve. Their main goal was to get through the evening without upsetting the baron, without getting into a fight with Paldemar (which meant, at a minimum, not outing him as the leader of the hobgoblin raiders), and without revealing any secrets to him. In particular, they didn't want him to learn that they had found the tapestry, and that it was in fact 15' away from him in Gutboy's backpack.
<snip>
This whole scene was resolved as a complexity 5 skill challenge. It ran for more than an hour, but probably not more than two. The general pattern involved - Paldemar asking the PCs about their exploits; either the paladin or the sorcerer using Bluff to defuse the question and/or evade revealing various secrets they didn't want Paldemar to know; either the paladin or the wizard then using Diplomacy to try to change the topic of conversation to something else - including the Baron's family history; and Paldemar dragging things back onto the PCs exploits and discoveries over the course of their adventures.
Following advice given by LostSoul on these boards back in the early days of 4e, my general approach to running the skill challenge was to keep pouring on the pressure, so as to give the players a reason to have their PCs do things. And one particular point of pressure was the dwarf fighter/cleric - in two senses. In story terms, he was the natural focus of the Baron's attention, because the PCs had been presenting him as their leader upon entering the town, and subsequently. And the Baron was treating him as, in effect, a noble peer, "Lord Derrik of the Dwarfholm to the East". And in mechanical terms, he has no training in social skills and a CHA of 10, so putting the pressure on him forced the players to work out how they would save the situation, and stop the Baron inadvertantly, or Paldemar deliberately, leading Derrik into saying or denying something that would give away secrets. (Up until the climax of the challenge, the only skill check that Derriks' player made in contribution to the challenge was an Athletics check - at one point the Baron described himself as a man of action rather than ideas, and Derrik agreed - I let his player make an Athletics check - a very easy check for him with a +15 bonus - to make the fact of agreement contribute mechanically to the party's success in dealing with the situation.)
<snip>
At another point, when the conversation turned to how one might fight a gelatinous cube (Paldemar having explained that he had failed in exploring one particular minotaur ruin because of some cubes, and the PCs not wanting to reveal that they had explored that same ruin after beating the cubes) the sorcerer gave an impromptu demonstration by using Bedevilling Burst to knock over the servants carrying in the jellies for desert. (I as GM had mentioned that desert was being brought in. It was the player who suggested that it should probably include jellies.) That he cast Bedevilling Burst he kept secret (another Bluff check). But he loudly made the point that jellies can be squashed at least as easily as anything else.
While fresh jellies were prepared, Derrik left the table to give a demonstration of how one might fight oozes using a halberd and fancy footwork. But he then had to return to the table for desert.
The destruction of the Soul Abattoir was run mostly as a skill challenge, but with a combat a little over halfway through (and some of this is reposted from other threads):
- The entrance to the Soul Abattoir, at which the PCs had arrived, was an icy tunnel floor, ending at a cliff overlooking the cavern - the river of souls was flowing some way beneath the ice, and flowed out from the base of the entrance cliff into Torog's various machines;
- The drow sorcerer and tiefling paladin flew to the bottom of the cliff, where the paladin blew his Fire Horn to render the ice more susceptible to heat, while the drow cast Flame Spiral to melt some of the ice, and then cast Wall of Water to block the flow of souls (check-wise, this was an Arcana check by the player of the drow, with a buff from the melting of the ice and use of the wall);
- The paladin and invoker then headed to the largest building, at the other end of the cavern, while the cleric-ranger on his flying carpet provided archery cover and the sorcerer flew above them maintaining concentration on his wall spell (check-wise, this was an Acro check for the archer and the sorcerer, and an Intimidate check from the paladin assisted by the invoker to make their way through Torog's minions);
- Once they got to the far building, the paladin and invoker sought the intervention of the Raven Queen to redirect the flow of souls directly to the Shadowfell rather than via Torog's infernal machines (one failed and one successful Religion check; the failure led to damage from a combination of psychic and necrotic energies generated by the suffering souls);
- Meanwhile, with the flow of souls stopped, the fighter fought his way through the other (lesser) buildings, destroying the machinery inside them (Athletic check buffed by expenditure of a close burst encounter power to fight through the minions from building to building, and Dungeoneering to wreck the machinery);
- When the PCs had all regrouped at the furthest (and most important) building resolution then switched from skill challenge mode to tactical combat mode, as they stormed the building and fought with Torog's shrivers plus a death titan;
- After the (very challenging) fight, during which the last machine was turned off by the sorcerer (the player made a successful Thievery check as a standard action once the PCs had finally fought their way along the central gantry that ran above the pool of souls), the skill challenge then resumed as the Soul Abattoir itself started to collapse;
- The ranger and sorcerer flew out of the cavern (successful Acro checks) while the paladin ran out beneath them, but was struck by falling rocks (failed Aths check, making the 3-person group check a success altogether as a majority succeeded, but costing the paladin damage for the failure);
- The fighter shielded the invoker (Endurance check) as the latter held off the powerful soul energy while the others made their escape (Religion check);
- The invoker noticed that Vecna was trying to take control of the soul energy via the invoker's imp familiar that has the Eye of Vecna implanted in it (as GM, I had decided that this was the moment when Vecna would try and steal the souls for himself; mechanically I asked the player to make an Insight check, which was successful);
- The invoker, having to choose between two of his patrons (he is a very pluralist divine PC) stopped Vecna redirecting the souls away from the Raven Queen, making sure that they flowed to her instead (in play, at this point I asked the player whether his PC - who at this point still had the erupting soul energy under his mystical control - whether he was going to let the souls flow to Vecna, or rather direct them to the Raven Queen; the player though for probably about 20 seconds, and then replied "The Raven Queen"; I decided that, on the basis of the earlier Religion check with no further check required, and I also decided that Vecna in anger shut down the offending imp via his Eye);
- The invoker and fighter then ran out of the collapsing cavern behind their companions, the invoker being shielded from falling rocks by the burly dwarf fighter (Athletics checks, with the fighter doing well enough to grant an "aid another" bonus to the invoker, so from memory neither took any damage).
As the PCs were flying along, they saw an eladrin hunting party, with a displacer beast pack, below them in the woods.
<snip>
Pleasantries, which included the drow prominently displaying his symbol of Corellon to prove his good faith (he is a member of a small drow cult of Corellon worshippers who seek to end the influence of Lolth and undo the sundering of the elves), revealed that the eladrin was a Marcher Baron, Lord Distan. (The PCs and players recognised that name, as someone who had kicked the hags out of their former home 20-odd years ago, leading them to taking up residence in their Tower instead.)
He invited them back to his home, where it quickly became clear that he didn't really want their company, but rather wanted them to help him with a problem - he was expecting a visit in a few days from his Duke overlord, but his special apple grove was not fruiting as it normally would.
This was an adaptation to 4e mechanics and backstory of the scenario "The Demon of the Red Grove" in Robin Laws's HeroWars Narrator's Book. The reason for the trees in the grove not fruiting is that a demon, long bound there, has recently been awoken but remains trapped within the grove, and hence is cursing the trees. Mechanically, this was resolved as a skill challenge. First the PCs had to endure the demon's three cries of "Go Away!" (group checks, with failing PCs taking psychic damage - the sorcerer, who is also a multi-class bard, was the most flamboyant here, spending his Rhythm of Disorientation encounter power to open up the use of Diplomacy for the check, which in the fiction was him singing a song of apples blossoming in the summer). Somewhere during this process the cleric-ranger and invoker both succeeded at Perception checks and could hear the high-pitched whistling of a song bird. And the sorcerer's Arcana check revealed the presence of the demon - an ancient and mighty glabrezu (level 27 solo, as I told the players in order to try to convey the requisite sense of gravity).
At this point I thought they would attack the demon, but they decided to speak to it first, to find out how it had got there and what it was doing there.
<snip>
They then debated whether to bargain with it, but doubted its promise that "My word is my bond." The player of the invoker decided to use the Adjure ritual - that works on immortal creatures only, so he used it to try and change the immortal magic of the Raven Queen that was binding the demon. Instead of being trapped in the grove, they wanted the demon to instead go forth and fight frost giants and formorians. A roll was made (with help from the paladin, the ranger-cleric (who is also a Raven Queen devotee) and the sorcerer (who hates the giants because they serve evil primordials and he serves Chan, a "good" archomental). Unfortunately the roll was not very high, which meant that even with the bonuses it didn't achieve a full success, so the demon is bound for a week only - and hence was quite cheerful as it flew off to the north to beat up on frost giants.
There's a variety of illustrations there of the use of a power opening up the use of a skill to achieve a particular outcome within a challenge, as well as an example of the use of a ritual.
even the DMG 2 only offers a bonus to a skill check (because, in the end. it's the skill roll that matters for the count). Moreover, the powers are not calibrated to use that way, how do you regulate encounter power usage for example ?
"These might allow special uses of skills, perhaps with a bonus.", yeah right, how nice, how open...
So the second of these two quotes shows that the first is wrong. A far as regulating encounter power usage, it's fairly straightforward: no more than once per encounter! Part of what makes 4e so easy to adjudicate is the uniform resource suites across all players (because of the systematic PC builds).
(It's also odd that you're worried about short rests within the scope of a skill challenge, when in other posts you've asserted that there's not time in a skill challenge to use a ritual. Both can't be right.)
I have already proven to you that you are not reading that section correctly, you retain ONE vague sentence out of 10000 which tell you the contray
The famous page 42 of the DMG that
@pemerton likes to quote never says whathe think it says, it talks about giving a +2 circumstancial modifier, casting action as a check and improvising damage (which is a silly thing because it scales damage for things like a fire according to the power of the user, so being thrown in the same chimney by a lvl 1 and a level 30 multiplies the damage by 3). And that's all it says.
Section 42 provides an example of causing forced movement by way of improvised action (pushing an ogre 1 sq and causing damage). So it's not just about improvised damage - it's also about improvised effects. This was obvious to me as soon as I read it, which is why I had players improvising effects from early on in my 4e play - eg a paladin of the Raven Queen speaking a prayer (resolved as a Religion check) to gain combat advantage against an undead enemy.
And in terms of rules, I have pointed out that it's impossible. You have gimped that poor Ygorl to a point where an extremely difficult encounter is brushed away by a player clinging to him and forcing Ygorl to make skill checks instead of using his considerable powers.
And actually, while that style of play is cool if you like it, it certainly does not cover
@pemerton changing on the fly the rules of grappling so that a Boss like Ygorl has to use skill checks to get rid of a pesky hanger on. While that is cool and is certainly story orientated, the problem is that it sets a dangerous precedent for teleportation, in a system where everything is codified. So what will happen next time ? Will people, players and monsters/NPCs be able to hold on through teleportation or not ? How can they know what to rely on when, instead of a complete rule system that leaves no hole in the technicalities, you poke a hole like this ?
You are the one who seems to be bringing the rigidity! A
dangerous precedent? Some of us call it
playing the game.
I can't remember now whether the players generated some effect that allowed the paladin to hang onto Ygorl as he teleported; or whether Ygorl was deliberately holding the paladin to him as he teleported. I know that Ygorl was dragging the paladin through waves of chaos and entropy as he teleported: mechanically attempting Arcana checks to inflict damage.
If it were to come up in future cases, it would be resolved the same way: via skill checks to impose conditions and generate effects. That's the basic resolution method of 4e, with the DCs, damage spreads, etc all set out in a simple framework.
the proponents of "skilled play" will probably not be really happy with gimping a boss like Ygorl like that
Part of skilled play is using the fiction - as
@Ovinomancer and
@Campbell have mentioned.
In the context of 4e D&D at Epic tier, that fiction includes the cosmological context in which the PCs - including a demigod, a Sage of Ages, an Eternal Defender, an Emergent Primordial and a Marshall of Letherna - are operating. Engaging with Ygorl, grappling him, holding onto him - and then trapping him in the Crytsal of Ebon Flame - is what the game is about.
