D&D General Railroads, Illusionism, and Participationism

[Crimson Longinus]

Have you ever asked this about a game you were potentially going to play in? If so, what game? Did you play or opt out?

None of my players have ever asked something like that. It seems an odd criteria.

I have asked it or something similar, but it's not alone a reason for me to opt out. I still definitely want to know if the game heavily features such mechanics, it requires different headspace orientation. Also, this tangent literally started by a poster listing their personal pros and cons for wanting to play a Story Now game. Several people in this thread have said it is important to them, so I don't think it is particularly rare. It just might not often even be relevant as games which have such mechanics (or at least heavily feature them) are somewhat niche, so most people don't even ever encounter them much. But D&D 4e went a bit in that direction and a lot of people didn't like that (and what 4e did was super mild.)

 

[hawkeyefan]

I have asked it or something similar, but it's not alone a reason for me to opt out. I still definitely want to know if the game heavily features such mechanics, it requires different headspace orientation. Also, this tangent literally started by a poster listing their personal pros and cons for wanting to play a Story Now game. Several people in this thread have said it is important to them, so I don't think it is particularly rare. It just might not often even be relevant as games which have such mechanics (or at least heavily feature them) are somewhat niche, so most people don't even ever encounter them much. But D&D 4e went a bit in that direction and a lot of people didn't like that (and what 4e did was super mild.)

Do you recall the game you were considering? Did you play it? Did you opt out?

 

[Scott Christian]

Also do people discuss things this way in real life? If you talk about prospects of playing together with someone and they're new to the system and asks whether Dungeon World or Burning Wheel has rules that allow the player to affect things outside their character, do you understand what they're asking?

This, right here. I can teach high schoolers who have never read the PHB D&D. They could never have seen the game before, and within ten minutes have an understanding of how the game is played. In an hour, they will know and understand how the game is run, in almost all aspects. They may not have the rules and powers and mechanics memorized, but they understand the process of the game.

It seems to me, that some of this discussion should try to be more in line with that type of concision.

 

[hawkeyefan]

This, right here. I can teach high schoolers who have never read the PHB D&D. They could never have seen the game before, and within ten minutes have an understanding of how the game is played. In an hour, they will know and understand how the game is run, in almost all aspects. They may not have the rules and powers and mechanics memorized, but they understand the process of the game.

It seems to me, that some of this discussion should try to be more in line with that type of concision.

You could teach them Dungeon World just as quickly. Or any number of other games.

These games aren’t more difficult to learn or teach than D&D.

They generally only seem so to folks who are familiar with only D&D.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Do you recall the game you were considering? Did you play it? Did you opt out?

It's not any specific instance, when I'm invited to play a game I'm not familiar with, I always ask about the style of mechanics.

 

[Scott Christian]

You could teach them Dungeon World just as quickly. Or any number of other games.

These games aren’t more difficult to learn or teach than D&D.

They generally only seem so to folks who are familiar with only D&D.

And I believe that, as I have taught quite a few games in my time. But, to hear this conversation, no one would think it.

My statement was not to disparage the games. I feel certain they contribute to the gaming community and are well done. My statement was to 105 pages of text to explain something. I believe the more succinct a person can be; the more they can use plain language, and still explain their ideas, are rare. All I was saying is, I wish there was one here.

 

[darkbard]

ByThis, right here. I can teach high schoolers who have never read the PHB D&D. They could never have seen the game before, and within ten minutes have an understanding of how the game is played. In an hour, they will know and understand how the game is run, in almost all aspects. They may not have the rules and powers and mechanics memorized, but they understand the process of the game.

It seems to me, that some of this discussion should try to be more in line with that type of concision.

Could this be because HS students are familiar and comfortable with the typical authority distribution between teacher-student and thus easily fall into the assumed authority distribution many bring to a D&D game?

This, right here. I can teach high schoolers who have never read the PHB D&D. They could never have seen the game before, and within ten minutes have an understanding of how the game is played. In an hour, they will know and understand how the game is run, in almost all aspects. They may not have the rules and powers and mechanics memorized, but they understand the process of the game.

It seems to me, that some of this discussion should try to be more in line with that type of concision.

Could this be because most HS students are familiar and comfortable with the typical teacher-student authority distribution of the classroom and that the typical D&D game reproduces this familiarity in its vested DM authority?

 

[darkbard]

Weird editing in my post above. Sorry!

 

[hawkeyefan]

And I believe that, as I have taught quite a few games in my time. But, to hear this conversation, no one would think it.

My statement was not to disparage the games. I feel certain they contribute to the gaming community and are well done. My statement was to 105 pages of text to explain something. I believe the more succinct a person can be; the more they can use plain language, and still explain their ideas, are rare. All I was saying is, I wish there was one here.

Sure, I wouldn’t disagree with that.

Interestingly, I don’t think that anyone new to RPGs would present many of the challenges we’ve seen in this thread.

 

[FrozenNorth]

What you describe here seems to have nothing to do with the actual thematic content you referred to which I then responded to in my post, namely, feudalism and the death of a feudal leader. (That being why I nominated two PCs with - it would seem - contrasting thematic relations to that, namely a Folk Hero Rogue vs a Noble Crown Oath Paladin.)

The differences you're pointing to seem to be basically tactical, and not thematic at all. Which does seem consistent with @Ovinomancer's points upthread.

The only thing you can conclude from my second post is that we have very different interpretations of Folk Heroes (and that’s OK!). I disagree that the difference is merely tactical. The folk hero fairy tales involving Jack the Giant Killer are very different tonally from the feudal stories I described for the paladin.