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D&D (2024) I think we are on the cusp of a sea change.

Faolyn

(she/her)
In other words, you can still have the trappings of a hero's journey: quests, dungeon crawls, leveling up and power ups, etc, But, if the content is edited so there's no evil to fight against, then this could devalue the importance going on the quest in the first place. If Emperor Palpatine or Sauron are no longer evil, then why bother fighting them? If the Heroes aren't objectively good, are they still heroes? No good knights of King Arthur facing the evil knighs of Mordred, per the new values, Which is fine, if that's what you want, but if you want objectively evil or good mythical characters, I guess pick up a copy of Pendragon?
Emperor Palpatine and Sauron are still evil. Their minions are still evil. What's changed is that now you need to have a motivation for Blorg the Orc to be evil because "Blorg the Orc is evil because he's an orc" isn't a good motivation.

"Blorg the Orc is evil because he leads a gang of sadistic, murderous bandits" is OK. Nobody is saying you have to go into Blorg's history to find out what caused him to turn to evil. You can if you want to, but you don't have to.
 

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As a case in point The Hunger Games is one of the most successful pieces of young adult fiction! I don’t see D&D going that way to be honest!
I re-watched the Hunger Games recently and it was less grim than I remembered. I'd say it was about on-par with D&D. I read the books a while ago and they may have been grimmer, but the setting is less oppressive/scary than Dark Sun, say.
 

Do you have examples?
I can give an example for him, of something that would be hard to change because of backwards compatibility, but ideally should be changed - 6-8 encounters/day assumption. It's so baked in to 5E that, short of taking the entire game apart and reassembling it, you couldn't fix it.

There's a lot of other stuff where it depends on how far they're willing to go. Like, with subclasses, are they willing to fundamentally change them and make some subclasses technically incompatible between 5E and 2024E? If not, then there are a lot of classes which cannot be "fixed" in 2024E even though they would be pretty easy to fix if you did do that.

I think it all depends on how WotC defines "backwards compatible" or whatever though. If it's absolute, it'll be hugely limiting. If it's just "mostly" or "you can use adventures and monsters without changing them, but PCs may need updating", then it'll be fine.
 

I think rather than a "young" audience or "adult" audience, D&D has usually targeted a "universal" audience, in that both kids and adults can get a lot out of it.
I mean, I don't think 1E targeted a "universal" audience. I don't think it was even thinking very hard about "targeting an audience" though, to be fair. I think the writers were thinking solely of "people like them" (i.e. slightly nerdy white men with decent educations in their late teens through thirties) where they thought about it at all.

2E and onwards target the "universal" audience which necessarily also involves essentially targeting "teen" or "young adult" audience as they're you're lowest common denominator.
 

Oofta

Legend
Emperor Palpatine and Sauron are still evil. Their minions are still evil. What's changed is that now you need to have a motivation for Blorg the Orc to be evil because "Blorg the Orc is evil because he's an orc" isn't a good motivation.

"Blorg the Orc is evil because he leads a gang of sadistic, murderous bandits" is OK. Nobody is saying you have to go into Blorg's history to find out what caused him to turn to evil. You can if you want to, but you don't have to.
How about Blorg the Orc is a follower of Gruumsh so therefore we know he's evil because only someone evil would follow that god?
 




Scribe

Legend
all of them seem guilty of that so we need something to make him more than cn.
I dont think selfish, is particularly chaotic, I think selfish is evil.

I believe that Evil is best defined as working towards your own desires, regardless of the impact on others, including maliciousness.

Now, can all gods fall under that? Perhaps to some degree, because in D&D, even gods are 'people' and have free will, which we are discussing across a few threads right now.

Again however, I believe this is the central, largest issue currently present in how Wizards is presenting D&D, Gods, and how they are managed.
 

Because he is a selfish god.
I mean, the problem kind of is that about 70% of gods (at least in the FR) labelled "Good" display zero characteristics that you would expect from a Good-aligned PC and numerous characteristics you might expect from an "Evil" one. Someone like Ilmater, yeah, unarguably good, basically a take on a Jesus-type or Issek of the Jug or whatever. But like, Clangeddin? Basically the Dwarven god of genocide? Ehhhhh. He's labelled as Lawful Good. Basically nothing he teaches nor the expected behaviour of his followers matches up with LG. He's not far off Gruumsh.

Jeez even the FR wiki says:

"Though they sought to make their dwarven brethren stronger on the battlefield through their teachings, followers of Clangeddin were often viewed as little more than bloodthirsty barbarians among other races."

It's quoting Powers and Pantheons there I believe. And the other races are not wrong to see him that way.

So I'm fine with Gruumsh being CE or whatever, but it is a problem that there are, currently, a bunch of gods labelled as Good, who, again, if they were PCs, would not be "Good", especially not Lawful Good.

If selfishness is Evil then most FR gods are pretty much definitely Evil. And I think it is. I mean I don't think you're wrong, I just think if we get on that road we have to follow it the whole way.
 

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