D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Zardnaar]

Sorry but this is ahistorical nonsense. I'll keep as brief as I can.

You want to consider the positives and the negatives? Then you cannot argue that. I mean, it's just outright false anyway ("just better documented" because archaeology doesn't support that claim). I studied ancient history, note. Roman slavery was not the same as slavery throughout the ancient world. The scale of slavery, who got enslaved, what slaves were used for, the role in slaves in society, and the laws surrounding slavery were highly unusual with Rome. It's like, you say Roman roads and aqueducts were amazing and different those of other people? There's some truth in that, but equally, their slavery was not the same. Likewise their executions. They were not necessarily any more horrific - it is true everyone seems to have ridiculous execution methods reported (archaeology does not support most of them actually existing - though crucifixion sure did!), but Romans executed people on unheard-of scales, in some cases tens of thousands at once (take that Aztecs and your mass sacrifices!), and they executed people for reasons other cultures wouldn't consider (for example, when a slave-owner was killed by a slave he owned, all his slaves were executed - in one case this was 400 slaves - some of whom literally weren't even in the same city as the crime). I would advise that you stop trying to argue stuff you really don't know much about. If you really want to keep arguing it, DM me.

(Just as an aside it's pretty funny when Caesar is all like "OMG Druids put a handful of criminals in a wickerman and burned it! So barbaric!" when the Romans were happily nailing people to crosses left right and center. And there's actual archaeological evidence for the latter.)

We know those things because the Romans documented it. I'm not saying they weren't cruel. Aztecs, Assyrian, Tamerlane/Mongols hell Alexander the Great all did similar things.

20th century comes to mind as well.

The Empire lasted 500-1600 odd years depending on how you count it. We know of those things because it was documented.

Other empires fell apart a lot quicker due to their own brutality and/or they sucked even more at integrating the conquered people.

It's more of a human flaw than a specific empire or whatever.

 

[MGibster]

Except making money and making sure the 'joke' spreads.

And like all dangerous ideas we need to make sure it stays out of the hands of others. This thread reminds me of why Banned Books Week exists.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And like all dangerous ideas we need to make sure it stays out of the hands of others. This thread reminds me of why Banned Books Week exists.

How about we don't break out the ISO Standard go-to hyperbole?

No one is banning anything. But it is pretty suspect the keep profiting from distributing it. Companies discontinue products all the time. Did Pepsi 'ban' the objectively delicious Pitch Black because they stopped selling it? Is McDonalds continually banning the McRib?

 

[Maxperson]

That's a good and fair question.

To me, the difference is this-

The Washington Football Team and the Cleveland Guardians (who formerly had the names you referred to) were continuing to use these names as part of their current identity, and this was inextricably tied into their current marketing, branding, and all efforts. It was a very public and ongoing ... well, slur.

On the other hand, things that were created in the past and are of their time ("art" - using the term loosely) are not the same. Whether it's a painting, or a piece of music, or a TV program, or a book, or even a gaming supplement (or even an old commercial), these are all artifacts of their time. There is a whole 'nother issue about capitaliss, and long tails, and availability to people that isn't worth going into, but suffice to say that (to use an easy example), the issues in a book like Huck Finn are integral to that book to that book and time. The issues in a John Hughes movie (just pick one... say, Long Duk Dong) are inherent to that movie and that time. And so on.

In order to learn about those issues, many of which continue to this day, we don't alter or change the past. Instead, we learn from it and improve the present. All things from the past will have issues; the key is to learn from that to inform the present.

But yes, if Hasbro ever decided to just make Mystara an official setting again and kept everything from GAZ10, that would be a massive problem.

That's a good reply and I can totally see your position.

To me, continued support through the sales of the Mystara PDFs puts it into a middle zone. It's not current in the sense that a setting book has been put out for it in 5e, but it's not exactly relegated to the past, either.

Mystara is also mentioned a few times as a setting in the 5e PHB and 5e DMG. People who want to know more are going to have to look to these past books to find out about the setting and that will lead them to these PDFs.

I certainly don't want to see GAZ 10 banned or "book burned," but I think continued sales should be ended.

 

[MGibster]

How about we don't break out the ISO Standard go-to hyperbole?

No one is banning anything. But it is pretty suspect the keep profiting from distributing it. Companies discontinue products all the time. Did Pepsi 'ban' the objectively delicious Pitch Black because they stopped selling it? Is McDonalds continually banning the McRib?

And let’s not bury our heads in the sand here and pretend like you’re not advocating a de facto ban. From banned books week: Banned Books Week was launched in 1982 in response to a sudden surge in the number of challenges to books in schools, bookstores and libraries. I.e. threads like this are why the annual celebration exists.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And let’s not bury our heads in the sand here and pretend like you’re not advocating a de facto ban.

Absolutely untrue and I'd appreciate you not trying to ascribe something untrue to me.

Not continuing the production of a thing is not banning it.

Again, I ask: do you think that the fact that they don't print DvDs of the Cosby Show constitutes banning it?

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:
Folks,

As this thread eases into the predictable round of accusing each other of horrendous things, please consider if you'd like to spend the holiday season banned from the site.

 

[Mordhau]

How about we don't break out the ISO Standard go-to hyperbole?

No one is banning anything. But it is pretty suspect the keep profiting from distributing it. Companies discontinue products all the time. Did Pepsi 'ban' the objectively delicious Pitch Black because they stopped selling it? Is McDonalds continually banning the McRib?

Ehhh...I doubt there's much profit being made from Gaz10 and there is a difference between ceasing to produce something that actually requires money and effort and just keeping something available that doesn't take any effort.

If nothing else, if it's available it allows people to actually read it and see yes, this sort of thing, actually was part of the hobby.

Also. It's 30 years old and now there's a warning on it. It's dubious that it's availability is doing any actual harm to anyone at this point.

 

[MGibster]

Absolutely untrue and I'd appreciate you not trying to ascribe something untrue to me.

And I see the red text

 

[Faolyn]

Except making money and making sure the 'joke' spreads.

Football is advertised all over the place and is actively promoted. Is anyone actually trying to promote Gaz10? Are most people who aren't already into BECMI even aware it exists? This thread has probably done more to advertise it than anything WotC or probably even TSR ever did.