Level Up (A5E) Gnolls (and other evil things)

[Indagare Nogitsune]

Is there any possibility of making it where the Gnolls are not the newest Orcs/Goblins in terms of "it's okay to genocide them!"?

Like, PCs may need things to fight, but I'm always bothered when an entry is basically "yes, they can be good but they'll never escape this [insert thing making their culture murder]".

I mean, just once I'd like to see matrilineal non-evil Gnolls with a more complicated relationship with folks.

It's like this with Chromatic Dragons too. Like maybe take a leaf from Eberron's pages with things?

 

[RangerWickett]

I don't know if there are plans for other gnoll material in Level Up, but in the ZEITGEIST setting, no, they're very much not cannon fodder.

 

[Indagare Nogitsune]

I don't know if there are plans for other gnoll material in Level Up, but in the ZEITGEIST setting, no, they're very much not cannon fodder.

I mean, different settings having different things is fine, but I really wish people were a bit more hesitant when it came to living beings effectively being "okay to kill" because of whatever reasons. And I know some people will point out they're literally possessed by a demon, but if anything that makes this sort of thing worse since it's a violation of their free will.

 

[VenerableBede]

Is there any possibility of making it where the Gnolls are not the newest Orcs/Goblins in terms of "it's okay to genocide them!"?

That's entirely up to first the DM and then the players: the DM to take a more Eberron-approach to monstrous races, the players to not immediately genocide gnolls on sight even if the DM has made it clear that no race, in his/her campaign, is inherently evil.
(This does require significantly altering the canon for gnolls, but who cares? If it's your table, do what's fun for you.)

If you aren't referring to your table and just care about published content, RangerWickett's post about Zeitgeist makes it clear that the setting takes an Eberron-approach to monstrous races. The Monstrous Menagerie pretty clearly leans into the inherently evil nature of gnolls though, so you're 1 for 2 as far as Level Up's published (and soon-to-be published) content is concerned.

 

[Indagare Nogitsune]

That's entirely up to first the DM and then the players: the DM to take a more Eberron-approach to monstrous races, the players to not immediately genocide gnolls on sight even if the DM has made it clear that no race, in his/her campaign, is inherently evil.
(This does require significantly altering the canon for gnolls, but who cares? If it's your table, do what's fun for you.)

If you aren't referring to your table and just care about published content, RangerWickett's post about Zeitgeist makes it clear that the setting takes an Eberron-approach to monstrous races. The Monstrous Menagerie pretty clearly leans into the inherently evil nature of gnolls though, so you're 1 for 2 as far as Level Up's published (and soon-to-be published) content is concerned.

I know, but I find reading this stuff more and more creepy. Like, if they're really trying to get away from the racist things don't start with them being evil. It even mentions that other humanoids can participate in the rite, so maybe make it an additional cultural variation at the end of the MM and, you know, not the first thing people are likely to know about them?

 

[VenerableBede]

It sounds like you really like gnolls! I'd recommend just not playing them that way at your table, then, since I doubt the Monstrous Menagerie is ever getting a rewrite—and since the player options for gnolls, at least as presented in Zeitgeist, step away from the inherent evil anyway.

That said, I think it makes sense for the Monstrous Menagerie to lean into the evil—or at least reason to be combative and violent, something to fight—of most creatures within it. After all, it's a collection of stat blocks that will mostly be used for combat, so the focus is on reasons why we'd fight those things. Most adventuring parties being good—or at least neutral—they are much more likely to fight an evil band of marauding gnolls (or orcs, or goblins, or sahuagin, etc) than a good convent of gnoll nuns just looking to hug some people. I also think it makes sense for character options in a book like Zeitgeist to lean into the duality of any character option, because that prevents players from being pigeonholed (rather, feeling pigeonholed, since players should always make things their own anyway) when making their characters.

 

[Indagare Nogitsune]

It sounds like you really like gnolls! I'd recommend just not playing them that way at your table, then, since I doubt the Monstrous Menagerie is ever getting a rewrite—and since the player options for gnolls, at least as presented in Zeitgeist, step away from the inherent evil anyway.

That said, I think it makes sense for the Monstrous Menagerie to lean into the evil—or at least reason to be combative and violent, something to fight—of most creatures within it. After all, it's a collection of stat blocks that will mostly be used for combat, so the focus is on reasons why we'd fight those things. Most adventuring parties being good—or at least neutral—they are much more likely to fight an evil band of marauding gnolls (or orcs, or goblins, or sahuagin, etc) than a good convent of gnoll nuns just looking to hug some people. I also think it makes sense for character options in a book like Zeitgeist to lean into the duality of any character option, because that prevents players from being pigeonholed (rather, feeling pigeonholed, since players should always make things their own anyway) when making their characters.

D&D tends to lack playable canine races for some reason, and I do like canines (yes, I know hyenas are not canine). Also I read the comic strip Digger and got a lot of ideas for gnolls from there.

It'd make sense if all the creatures in the MM were evil, but they aren't. Zeitgeist is very nice, but I kind of wish it were also present in the MM as well. Even though it's fiction, I end up feeling something is wrong if a party of adventurers is justified in smashing a clutch of Red Dragon eggs because the babies would only ever turn out evil anyway (and thus their species deserves extinction).

 

[VenerableBede]

It'd make sense if all the creatures in the MM were evil, but they aren't. Zeitgeist is very nice, but I kind of wish it were also present in the MM as well.

While I won’t pretend that I’ve read through every entry very thoroughly in the MM, it is my perception that most monster entries give good reasons for the PCs to fight them, whether or not that reason is related to alignment. Either way, maybe you’ll get lucky next edition - orcs have been slowly turned into largely good (or net-neutral) creatures over time, as have goblins, and more monstrous races get added to that list as they get larger followings of players that want to see them officially accepted. Maybe Level Up 2.0 will be the gnolls’ time to shine.

As for players like me, I’m mostly playing DnD for the combat, with a little bit of role playing to keep things fresh, so it’s nice to have convenient monsters that are always safe to fight. Real life is too complicated as it is; I like keeping my RPGs simple to play.

 

[VanguardHero]

I mean, just once I'd like to see matrilineal non-evil Gnolls with a more complicated relationship with folks.

You should check out the Mwangi Expanse book for Pathfinder 2e, they have really good diverse Gnolls and yeah I wish LU had gone in that direction for them too

 

[dave2008]

I mean, different settings having different things is fine, but I really wish people were a bit more hesitant when it came to living beings effectively being "okay to kill" because of whatever reasons. And I know some people will point out they're literally possessed by a demon, but if anything that makes this sort of thing worse since it's a violation of their free will.

What are you asking for exactly? It appears the very first response gave you exactly what you wanted, and then you go and dismiss it without really any acknowledgement. Are you really really looking for solutions or just complaining?