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D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

I'm absolutely sure most of that will be changed in the new book. I assume its sections on Kraghammer and Syngorn won't include subheadings labeled "Prejudice" like the original book.
I still don't see why including prejudice in narrative is a problem. It's a historical fact that is a logical (if unfortunate) consequence of human nature and tribalism, to the point where an utter lack of it can feel distinctly unrealistic. As far as good and evil go, aren't we trying to inject more nuance in our cultures now? Good and bad aspects of a given culture are part of that, making it feel more real.
 

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What if you don't like those new popular things? Are you not allowed to criticize something popular without being accused of "gatekeeping"?
Like with many things: it depends on how and why you are doing it. Context is important.

The crucial part of "girls shouldn't play D&D" is that it is pushing people away from the hobby and can therefore be described as gate keeping. That it is also an opinion is pretty irrelevant. So is your opinion thatMy point is expanding the meaning of gatekeeping to include opinions you dislike or disagree with, but don't rise to that level, in my opinion that isn't very healthy for a discussion about media. People should be able to say when they think an RPG crosses a line into being another type of game or not an RPG. That isn't keeping people from the hobby. Can it be used to push people out? I suppose. But I find that argument "this can be weaponized to" very weak. Assuming that I am failing to recognize something you think is obvious, or worse, making a bad faith decision to ignore the weight of argument, I don't know, I think that isn't helpful here. All I can say is people can have honest disagreements about this stuff without it being nefarious or bad faith.
It's not expanding the meaning of gatekeeping to claim that gatekeeping was involved against 4e. It's about applying the meaning honestly.
 

Well, I hope this has some relevance to the thread topic... What I observed is that my wife was subjected to prejudice pretty much constantly. She could recount on a daily basis the insulting and just plain stupid things that people said to her. They showed profound disrespect, ignorance, and often ill-will. This is really and truly pervasive, and comes from your boss, your co-workers, your customers, etc. as the DEFAULT way they operate. Sure, they are 'unaware' of it, but it is still crushing your life, removing opportunities for you to gain advancement, enjoyment, and live in a dignified way. You cannot not fight it, unless you simply want to give up, and even that isn't really a viable pathway.

I know it sucks to be constantly told that your opinions, attitudes, and the entire thought structure erected by your culture is deeply racist etc. Isn't that pretty much analogous to '4e is like a videogame'? I mean, both could be facts, could they not? Certainly seen from a certain perspective they can both ring true. If its OK to have the later opinion, why is the former one so bad? Because it implicates us in being part of, and indirectly supporting, a racist and culturally imperialistic order? I stand guilty! I can still remember my father explaining this to me when he said "I am prejudiced, I am more comfortable around white people." He was a very fair and open minded guy and actively supported minorities when he could, and he could see this truth. Sadly, we find ourselves in a world where our duty as enlightened human beings is to change ourselves, not to get frustrated because people often point out why we need to do that.

OTOH I'm definitely sympathetic. It can be exhausting to confront this in every element of life on a constant basis. Neither you nor I are interested in being offensive or living embodiments of things we don't find acceptable ourselves. It sucks for us too, but it sucks a lot less than being on the receiving end...

I think we are probably getting way off topic here. I can't say I agree with this mindset. I think racism is terrible. But I also think there is a lot of oversimplification about it. I think exaggerating it, making it the pervasive sin of our entire culture, that is misguided. It isn't because I find it uncomfortable to confront these things. It is because I don't think it is accurate, and as I said, simplistic. And I don't think it helps the people its intended to help (I think it causes more harm than good). I am in an interracial marriage. I do see real racism (my wide certainly encounters it). I also experience intolerance from people over it (sometimes from misguided people on 'my own side' of the political aisle even). But this mindset actually makes it harder to call out genuine forms of racism when they arise IMO. I dislike this point of view for the same reason I dislike racialist thinking: it locks people into bubbles, and reduce them to things like their racial or ethnic identity.
 

I think we are probably getting way off topic here. I can't say I agree with this mindset. I think racism is terrible. But I also think there is a lot of oversimplification about it. I think exaggerating it, making it the pervasive sin of our entire culture, that is misguided. It isn't because I find it uncomfortable to confront these things. It is because I don't think it is accurate, and as I said, simplistic. And I don't think it helps the people its intended to help (I think it causes more harm than good). I am in an interracial marriage. I do see real racism (my wide certainly encounters it). I also experience intolerance from people over it (sometimes from misguided people on 'my own side' of the political aisle even). But this mindset actually makes it harder to call out genuine forms of racism when they arise IMO. I dislike this point of view for the same reason I dislike racialist thinking: it locks people into bubbles, and reduce them to things like their racial or ethnic identity.
There are many people who seem more concerned about rolling back what constitutes racism, sexism, or other social issues than combating them when they occur in society. When does racism actually constitute racism? Leave it to some people to define it and the answer in practice amounts to "never." And nothing is ever actually done about it. But thankfully people subjected to racism can find comfort in the people who want you to know that they think that racism is terrible.
 

Not in OD&D. These were random hirelings, remember; at the very least it was never assumed you were going to find spellcasters available.
I'm not finding any indication of this in the actual text of Men & Magic... In fact it even states the terms under which Magic-Users and Clerics would be interested in being hired. They want magic! In any case, any hireling would be level 1, the exact statement being 'Only the lowest level of character types can be hired.' (M&M P12). Again, presumably they are rolled up like PCs, so they are mechanically identical.
OD&D hirelings--which is what we're talking about--didn't appear to have a class at all. They certainly weren't assumed to be clerics or wizards, and its not clear what combat table they were supposed to use. The weren't really classed any more than a lot of the 1 HD humanoid monsters were.
Again, read page 12 and etc. of Men & Magic, this is simply erroneous. While the idea of '0 level humans' or 'non-adventurers' is certainly inherent in OD&D it isn't systematically articulated, and the terms 'hireling' and 'henchman' for example do not have the particular meanings they acquire in AD&D. M&M P12 talks explicitly, and only, about classed NPCs.
I can only go by what I saw, and what I saw pretty consistently in multiple groups was that they were treated about the same as above. This was probably by implication with the way the follower rules for higher level PCs were set up.
I'd have to go look at the follower rules in M&M, but IIRC they do include fighters gaining bodies of actual Chainmail-style troops. Presumably these sorts of 'minions' don't really get stats, though perhaps if a player chose to have his character single out a few of them then they would get 'filled in' as more complete characters, and might even become level 1 fighters or something. Its really unclear that you can even HAVE 0-level hirelings in OD&D, a level 1 fighter is mechanically a 'veteran', which is already a grade of troops in Chainmail, so potentially they are not that uncommon. It is only in AD&D where the notion of 'Adventurers are a special group of people who can level up' is introduced.
Yeah, they may not have been particularly nuanced, but virtually everyone I saw in my OD&D days applied a noticable personality to their PCs. They might be ridiculous and over the top, but they weren't personality lacking. Again, remember the people I was playing with came from the SF fandom community; they were thinking in terms of playing fantasy protagonists or at least major NPCs, not random wargame chits (though there were always a person here or there like that).
I think we all had SOME degree of personality traits for any PC that lived long, yes. Not always, but there was an alignment and who they were associated with, and maybe some note scrawled on the sheet. IME it was pretty sketchy. Henchmen might have been less developed, but there wasn't much more down you could go, and if you rolled up 2 PCs and dived into a game, I hardly think they each had much personality. It seemed to me that this kind of game was pretty much the same as having one or two henchmen, just without all the advertising and gold trading hands.
I'm just going from what others have said. As I've noted, I never saw a group with more than a hireling or two, usually to manage the pack animals (or to function as two-legged versions of same).
I think this is more typical in later AD&D play IME. We often had 2 PCs, and usually one would be a 'backup' and virtually a henchman, or maybe even really a true henchman, though I agree we didn't use those rules super often. We did hire hirelings to keep the animals safe or whatever now and then, though dealing with them was often elided from play. Frankly 0-level hirelings become pretty useless after about 3rd level, the monsters just chew through them on round 1 and that's that. More likely they all see the ghouls approaching and scatter, only an idiot wouldn't.
Yeah, never saw much of that, either. Don't think I ever saw an OD&D DM that was going to allow you to drag along charmed monsters (or if they did, it was the same way they'd permit small numbers of hirelings).

Again, I'm not talking about what the game was designed for; I'm talking about how it seemed to actually be used in the wild, at least on the West Coast.
Well, in the games I played in, the whole reactions and recruiting monsters part was definitely less emphasized. In the oldest rounds of games it was there, when we used OD&D rules. Later we used Holmes Basic, and AFAIK it doesn't really discuss this kind of thing, though it has some of the reaction rules in it IIRC. Anyway, I don't think we're far apart, a few cases of monsters following PCs existed in our games, but not too many. We were more likely to use RP vs just dicing reactions in those days. And THAT is the RP we had, it was the players using their PC alter-egos to navigate through the game world fiction and accomplish things, nothing much else. I cited my 'psychotic' ranger, he was a super unique case, like the only one around. Sure, my friend had Francis McGillicutty (FM, get it) who had a nasty sense of humor, and Triborb VII who was basically a mad wizard, and a couple others I forget, but that was the extent of their personalities, and these were PCs that he ran for YEARS and were advanced to high levels. All my wizard PC's personality consisted of was he was super intelligent and min-maxed every situation, and his goal was learn all about everything, that's it. Played the character for years, cannot tell you a single thing about his backstory, it didn't even exist. He was a vehicle for expert play, nothing more. Towards the VERY end of the arcs of those characters, after they were semi-retired basically, they got a few elaborations. This was well into the 90's. Questioner tried to start a magic school, etc.
Keep in mind that in some areas (again, remembering my bias abotu what I saw out here), players were often a rotating function; a lot of games were run at conventions or at game clubs, so while you might have a kind of default group, it wasn't uncommon to be playing with people you only played with rarely or had never played with before. There was even a term for it "open" as contrasted with "closed" campaigns.
Well, at The Bunker most games were just one-offs where people used 'floating characters', and campaigns were more of a specialist thing. The players were a pretty steady roster, but it was DM of the week, basically. Otherwise campaigns were the rule, though it wasn't too unusual for one to be assembled using a roster of existing PCs, some of which might have originated in a totally different game.
 

There are many people who seem more concerned about rolling back what constitutes racism, sexism, or other social issues than combating them when they occur in society. When does racism actually constitute racism? Leave it to some people to define it and the answer in practice amounts to "never." And nothing is ever actually done about it. But thankfully people subjected to racism can find comfort in the people who want you to know that they think that racism is terrible.
That isn’t what I am saying. Like I said too off topic. But what I am saying is an expansive use of the term racism does far less to combat it and address the issues people are pointing to. I think it is a counter products approach that fights the wrong battles
 

Well, yes, we could spend lots of time researching the research. I don't find winning a dispute with you online to be all that compelling a use of my time to be perfectly honest.

It’s not a question of winning a dispute.

You’ve repeatedly universalized your experience.

your experience is not only NOT MINE, but is also contradicted by actual research.

in other words - there is no dispute. You have your own experience but to the extent you keep arguing that this is the way thing were, you are wrong.
 

That isn’t what I am saying. Like I said too off topic. But what I am saying is an expansive use of the term racism does far less to combat it and address the issues people are pointing to. I think it is a counter products approach that fights the wrong battles
Whether it comes to our hobby or elsewhere, there never seems to be a "right battle" when it comes to fighting against racism, but plenty of people who stand ready to accuse people of fighting the wrong battles. Is it any wonder that our society sees such slow progress against racism?
 

What if you don't like those new popular things? Are you not allowed to criticize something popular without being accused of "gatekeeping"?
The key word is 'criticize', which implies analysis and discussion instead of lobbing manufactured firebombs into other people's discussions usually without actually even so much as interacting with the thing one is attacking. '4e is a videogame' was largely based on superficial similarities (named roles to explain how a class was meant to be used, a designer DARING to namedrop the Hated Game, and most hilariously, the existence of HP (I am not kidding. there was a long thread on the wizards boards about this))
 

That does not sound like gate keeping, that sounds like a definitional dispute. How can you claim that it was an instance of gatekeeping? If that was the case 4e would never have even existed, let alone spawned a sprawling volume of books.

Does this really come down to being upset that people strongly disagreed with the direction D&D went with 4e one way or the other?
It is a bit tricky to parse this, and if you weren't there it maybe won't parse at all. It was not like that. A flood of people appeared instantly, even before the game was published, to deride the entire enterprise. Forums were filled with pure bunkum (substitute appropriate term here) written by people who had never played the game and clearly had not the faintest notion of what it was spewing nonsense.

Note that I don't, at all, aim that at @Bedrockgames for example. I think his opinion differs from mine and that's cool, we just have different tastes. If all I ever saw was comments from guys like him it would have been simply a bit frustrating, but that's not even close to how it was. Heck, you can go back to 2008 and dig up the threads. Enworld is pretty strongly modded, and there's still a good bit of it here. If you went to the WotC forums of the day (sadly extinct) you would get the full force of it. It was like 9 posts out of 10 were just ignorant drivel. You literally could not even start a thread, it would just be instantly filled with trash drive by D&D4=WOW trash posts. Again, written by people who, at most, skimmed the PHB for 5 minutes.
 

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