D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Malmuria]

I can't imagine my sense of self/validity being affected by what other people do or don't do/think or don't think. It is certainly not a virtue to let other people define you.

This comes off as a rather nonchalant dismissal of racism. I grew up in a very white suburb: out of my high school class of ~3700 probably less than 100 of us were people of culture*. My parents' language, religion, way of dressing, and food--really, our whole family--was regarded as a curiosity at best. So, especially as a child, but also as an adult, you do "let" the perceptions of a dominant culture define you to a certain, and you get by and try to fight for more accurate definitions and representations where you can. Your way phrasing it suggests that those who are marginalized are themselves to blame for their marginalization because they "let" themselves be affected it by it, when that's just a natural response to the social dynamics of ethnicity and race.

It's also quite striking that you "can't imagine" a situation in which your sense of self would be affected by what other people think. That's not confidence, that's narcissism.

*edit: people of COLOR. What a Freudian slip!

 

[MGibster]

After 82 pages I think we've said pretty much all that can be said. Someone said we're at the point where we're just talking past one another and I think that's true. So I'll just state a few positions and leave it at that.

1. I agree that Lovecraft was racist and this is reflected in his work.
2. I agree his racism should be acknowledged and addressed. (I'm not always sure the best way to address it.)
3. It's okay for people to be turned off by Lovecraft's racism and want to avoid his work.
4. It's okay for people to like problematic things so long as they recognize it's problematic. This includes Lovecraft.

Y'all take care.

 

[Thomas Shey]

The funny thing is, when I first read that story as a teen, I thought that they were stand-ins for inbreds. My, ol' Howard would not have liked me.

It probably wasn't hard, since Lovecraft wasn't beyond taking a shot at those elsewhere. Consider "The Dunwich Horror".

 

[Voadam]

Look at how many people talk about reading Lovecraft for the first time and not recognizing the racism. That's not a surprise. I'll bet, dollars to donuts, that everyone who said that is white. It's easy to not see racism when it's not directly directed at you or your family. I'll be the first to admit, I didn't think of it that way either. Of course I didn't. I saw it as the whole inbreeding thing too.

But, that's the point about being aware. You and I SHOULD recognize the blatant racism as soon as you read it. It's not a secret. It's not hidden. It's right there in plain sight. but, because of many reasons, we don't see it right away.

The racism in Herbert West is explicit and in the open on the surface as you read it. I expect most people reading it will recognize it.

In Shadow Over Innsmouth there is a pact involving breeding with inhuman monsters leading to physical and mental changes that manifest later in life in the human looking child.

There is no obvious surface connection of Deep Ones to Black people that I remember but it was years ago that I read it.

Many readers do not have a fear of miscegenation. Or see miscegenation as a top of mind theme.

There are a bunch of other themes the situation can be viewed as that fit better on the surface and are closer to mind to most readers today.

It is primarily by knowing the author and knowing he has a fear of miscegenation and has written other racist things that this possible lens comes closer to the surface.

Other Lovecraft stories seem to have no racial element at all. The Color Out of Space comes to mind as a contained story with no surface or underlying hook for racism that I recall.

No one should read HPL and come away thinking "Hmm, that's a fun, weird story" without also thinking, "Wow, that was incredibly racist."

I think that would depend heavily on the specific story.

 

[Thomas Shey]

No he wasn't. HP Lovecraft was more racist than most people of his time. The dude had a phobia of basically everything that he didn't grow up with/didn't comprehend (colors that we can't see, people of color, other cultures, AC units, etc).

Yes. This is why I tend to contrast him with Howard, who very much was typical of his specific place and time, and with continued exposure seemed to moderate his views toward the end of his life (and to provide context, took his own life at age 30, so its entirely possible he would have evolved further). The best you can say about Lovecraft is that sometimes his intellectual engagement overcame at least some elements of his kneejerk xenophobia (again, his treatment of the Great Race of Yith is notably different than his reaction to anything else alien), but its not really possible to deny how present and strong the latter is.

 

[Vaalingrade]

In Shadow Over Innsmouth there is a pact involving breeding with inhuman monsters leading to physical and mental changes that manifest later in life in the human looking child.

Yeah, Shadow is a Mulatto Tragedy* with fish.

*A late 1800's genre where a female child of a mixed race couple raised believing she is white comes to ruin later in life when her heritage is revealed and she is 'recognized' as inferior by her former peers.

It's real easy to recognize the racism when it's very particularly about you.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

The Shadow Over Innsmouth's ending makes that connection a bit weird, though, since in the end the narrator not only accepts becoming a Deep One but is planning to free his cousin so they can escape to the Deep One's city, which by this time the narrator is describing in favorable terms.

The tense extremes of horror are lessening, and I feel queerly drawn toward the unknown sea-deeps instead of fearing them. I hear and do strange things in sleep, and awake with a kind of exaltation instead of terror. I do not believe I need to wait for the full change as most have waited. If I did, my father would probably shut me up in a sanitarium as my poor little cousin is shut up. Stupendous and unheard-of splendours await me below, and I shall seek them soon. Iä-R’lyeh! Cthulhu fhtagn! Iä! Iä! No, I shall not shoot myself—I cannot be made to shoot myself!

I shall plan my cousin’s escape from that Canton madhouse, and together we shall go to marvel-shadowed Innsmouth. We shall swim out to that brooding reef in the sea and dive down through black abysses to Cyclopean and many-columned Y’ha-nthlei, and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory for ever.

The narrator's life isn't ruined; he gets to be an immortal in a deep sea wonderland.

 

[Hussar]

Almost as a rule, I try not to use the word 'should' in any sentence that doesn't also contain the word 'if' later.
The reason for that is, in teaching, reading, and grading papers anytime someone says "should" I demand that they explain "why".

Really? You actually need to be explained why here? Seriously?

 

[Hussar]

It's quite easy to see it in Herbert West but not nearly so easy in The Case of Charles Dexter Ward or The Colour Out of Space. It's fairly easy to miss in The Shadows Over Innsmouth.


I don't know who has refused to acknowledge the issue. There seems to be near universal agreement that Lovecraft was a racist and it permeates his work. The disagreement seems to be over whether or not it's okay to continue enjoying Lovecraft's work or whether or not his name should be consigned to the dustbin of history. In a way it's a very Lovecraftian situation. In ignorant bliss we can enjoy his stories. But once we understand the truth behind their origins, we enter into a crisis conscience as we see the universe as it is and not how we thought it was.

Really? I point you to @Filthy Lucre's posts then, because, it seems, pretty clearly, that he's pretty much refusing to acknowledge the issue.

And, you only get to be in "ignorant bliss" when you play the "I'm a white dude who has never been on the receiving end of racism" card.

Ok, let's dive into this a bit further shall we?

My children are mixed heritage, as my wife is Japanese. Which means my children are directly in the line of fire of something like Shadows Over Innsmouth and they don't have the luxury of being blissfully ignorant of that since it's pretty freaking blatant. So, fine, they decide to start playing D&D and pick up the 5e PHB, turn to the page listing the Inspirational Reading - not a bibliography, but including a direct quote from Gary Gygax about how important it is to read to become inspired to play D&D.

So, they go out to the local library and pick up a handful of these, including Shadows over Innsmouth because, let's be honest, it's readily available in many libraries and, because "Lovecraftian" is a pretty common description given a positive meaning, it would make sense to read it. It's certainly part of The Complete Works which is listed in the 5e PHB.

They read the story and get to the end. Now, what do you think is the more likely reaction:

A) Oh, well, that's just a product of the time, but, this hobby that I'd like to get into doesn't really support that despite directly telling me that this is an inspiration for the game

or

B) Oh look. It's another racist bigot in a long line of racist bigots being defended (Oh, it's just a product of the time, we don't really think that way anymore) by another bunch of racist bigots and promoted by yet another bigot.

Do you really think that they would feel welcome in the hobby? You really think that this has zero negative impact? Remember, Lovecraft is placed on a list of inspirational reading along with pretty much every other major fantasy author, without any explanation or context. Just, "If you want to play D&D, here's a bunch of authors that we found to be inspirational for the game." Yeah, can you really not see the issue here?

 

[Filthy Lucre]

MGibster said: I don't know who has refused to acknowledge the issue. There seems to be near universal agreement that Lovecraft was a racist and it permeates his work. The disagreement seems to be over whether or not it's okay to continue enjoying Lovecraft's work or whether or not his name should be consigned to the dustbin of history.

@Filthy Lucre's posts then, because, it seems, pretty clearly, that he's pretty much refusing to acknowledge the issue.

Lmao what? So did you not miss my posts where I talk about how hilariously racist HPL was? What is this comment supposed to mean? Could you have made a more disingenuous accusation? I'd really like you to back up what you just said because every post I've made directly contradicts your statement.


Today at 10:21 AM: I like authors such as HP Lovecraft and I recognize that they were 'problematic'. But what exactly does that do? Nothing about my...

Today at 10:33 AM: Same - in fact I don't think I have ever seen anyone defend HPL's character or beliefs. There's a world of difference between respecting...