D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Dannyalcatraz]

My children are mixed heritage, as my wife is Japanese. Which means my children are directly in the line of fire of something like Shadows Over Innsmouth and they don't have the luxury of being blissfully ignorant of that since it's pretty freaking blatant. So, fine, they decide to start playing D&D and pick up the 5e PHB, turn to the page listing the Inspirational Reading - not a bibliography, but including a direct quote from Gary Gygax about how important it is to read to become inspired to play D&D.

So, they go out to the local library and pick up a handful of these, including Shadows over Innsmouth because, let's be honest, it's readily available in many libraries and, because "Lovecraftian" is a pretty common description given a positive meaning, it would make sense to read it. It's certainly part of The Complete Works which is listed in the 5e PHB.

They read the story and get to the end. Now, what do you think is the more likely reaction:

A) Oh, well, that's just a product of the time, but, this hobby that I'd like to get into doesn't really support that despite directly telling me that this is an inspiration for the game

or

B) Oh look. It's another racist bigot in a long line of racist bigots being defended (Oh, it's just a product of the time, we don't really think that way anymore) by another bunch of racist bigots and promoted by yet another bigot.

Honestly, it’s hard to make a prediction. There’s no real data I’ve seen one way or the other.

I mean, virtually every American who tried the hobby in the first decade or so who isn’t a white male has had to deal with a wide variety of bigotry in the games themselves as well as the genre fiction that inspired them.

And yet, some of us still play the games and read the fiction.

 

[Hussar]

Mod Note:

This is making it personal. Please don’t do that going forward.

Totally not arguing with the mod here. My total bad. I need to take a break from this thread and take a breath. Sorry for that, and sorry for being "that guy" and bringing moderation into a thread that has remained spectacularly well behaved and productive.

I will probably continue to read the thread, but, after my next reply, I'm going into lurk mode, so, don't expect me to answer questions.

 

[Zardnaar]

Honestly, it’s hard to make a prediction. There’s no real data I’ve seen one way or the other.

I mean, virtually every American who tried the hobby in the first decade or so who isn’t a white male has had to deal with a wide variety of bigotry in the games themselves as well as the genre fiction that inspired them.

And yet, some of us still play the games and read the fiction.

Mind me asking what do you think about legacy content in general eg movies, TV etc?

Generally I'm intelligent enough to know if something is offensive. I was allowed to read whatever I wanted when I was younger. Age 5/6 reading about Rome/Greece, 10-12 WW2 in general Aztecs, Incas, and full colour nuclear bombing of Japan. Early high school Holocaust and we watched a video on it in history class aged 13/14 basically what they showed the Germans in 45.

Strong stomach basically. I'm not condoning bad things that happened in the past but really don't like being told what I can and can't read and find disclaimers patronizing and condescending as I'm not an idiot.

I don't mind warning labels eg R13, 16 or 18 etc as it's up to you what you find acceptable to consume.

I'm never gonna consume something like Orcs of Thar for fun but I might want to read it one day for whatever reason. Same thing with various other material.

 

[Hussar]

Honestly, it’s hard to make a prediction. There’s no real data I’ve seen one way or the other.

I mean, virtually every American who tried the hobby in the first decade or so who isn’t a white male has had to deal with a wide variety of bigotry in the games themselves as well as the genre fiction that inspired them.

And yet, some of us still play the games and read the fiction.

Yeah, see, to me, no one should have to play a game despite itself. We need to be better going forward.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, see, to me, no one should have to play a game despite itself. We need to be better going forward.

Which is what they're doing.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mind me asking what do you think about legacy content in general eg movies, TV etc?

I cannot recall ever rejecting quality music, literature, TV or film because of problematic elements. I know I’ve been close, though.*

I really like the “warning label” approach because don’t think such things should have their original forms edited. As mentioned before, our family repurchased copies of certain Mark Twain books after a publisher announced they’d be editing out certain language.

By keeping the originals intact, you maintain a historical record that XYZ existed. Not only that, sometimes, by revising something, you rob it of it’s intent, context and power.

Now, if someone does a “cover”/homage/update of that piece, then exorcising the problematic is entirely fair, justifiable, and appropriate. Maybe even necessary. If Disney were to reboot & re-film some of its older properties, it would be unconscionable them to include racist material not crucial to the storyline.

Similarly, something like a RPG product rewritten for the game’s latest edition should excise racist art & reliance on RW stereotypes.




* Pantera’s “Walk” is in that category.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yeah, see, to me, no one should have to play a game despite itself. We need to be better going forward.

Which is what they're doing.

That’s where I am, right now.

 

[Zardnaar]

I cannot recall ever rejecting quality music, literature, TV or film because of problematic elements. I know I’ve been close, though.*

I really like the “warning label” approach because don’t think such things should have their original forms edited. As mentioned before, our family repurchased copies of certain Mark Twain books after a publisher announced they’d be editing out certain language.

By keeping the originals intact, you maintain a historical record that XYZ existed. Not only that, sometimes, by revising something, you rob it of it’s intent, context and power.

Now, if someone does a “cover”/homage/update of that piece, then exorcising the problematic is entirely fair, justifiable, and appropriate. Maybe even necessary. If Disney were to reboot & re-film some of its older properties, it would be unconscionable them to include racist material not crucial to the storyline.

Similarly, something like a RPG product rewritten for the game’s latest edition should excise racist art & reliance on RW stereotypes.




* Pantera’s “Walk” is in that category.

More or less how I see it. Some things are offensive absolutely but I don't think one should white wash it. There's a bit of that going on in Russia atm.

HP Lovecraft not familiar with his work had to Google his lifespan.

Looks like he had a crap upbringing but he was absolutely a product of his time. Rupert Murdochs father is a contemporary of his, Birth of a Nation was contemporary.

September 13 1926 Washington Lovecraft was an adult then. My country wasn't perfect I think back then my country banned immigration from Asia.

Colonials were guilty of murder, land theft, some tribes here were guilty of genocide others cannibalism others sold human heads.

Had an interesting conversation at my birthday party at the puo in July Maori from up north saying what his tribe used to do. Pointed out what the Europeans did in WW2.

One thing I'm confidant of. In 2055 humans will still treat each other like crap somewhere on the planet.

NZs greatest movie adapted from a novel written by a PoC. 1993 starring a familiar face.

Warning bit rougher than Hollywood


Basic story domestic abuse, Maori culture, man descended from a slave married to a women from a higher social status background dealing with post colonialism.

Think they added that to high school curriculum.

30 years later.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Ok - done. Anything else? This is what I don't understand: What do you want me to DO with this knowledge that is not mere self reflection? I am keenly aware of the history of HPLs work, (which right now is sort of a stand in for the module that featured red and yellow orcs).

Do you want me to... stop reading HPL? Do you want me to join some kind organization? Is this just a mode of self improvement?

You missed my point entirely.

I think the big disconnect here is that I would never, EVER, dream of basically telling someone what they need to do with their own lives/beliefs/etcs. Like... I cannot imagine a more condescending thing than to tell someone to basically "be better".

Lmao what? So did you not miss my posts where I talk about how hilariously racist HPL was? What is this comment supposed to mean? Could you have made a more disingenuous accusation? I'd really like you to back up what you just said because every post I've made directly contradicts your statement.


Today at 10:21 AM: I like authors such as HP Lovecraft and I recognize that they were 'problematic'. But what exactly does that do? Nothing about my...

Today at 10:33 AM: Same - in fact I don't think I have ever seen anyone defend HPL's character or beliefs. There's a world of difference between respecting...

I'm playing catch-up on this thread, so I easily could have missed important context. However, looking back, it looks like you asked what you are supposed to do, and then got indignant about the idea of being told what to do, and then later again asked as to purpose or proposed/expected action. Can you clarify this? Are you looking for, or rigorously opposed to, suggested courses of action from others?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Which is what they're doing.

To which a lot of people are hurling themselves bodily under the wheels, digging ditches, throwing chains, posting hyperbolically -- anything to keep that from happening.