D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Maxperson]

But correlation is problematic, too. Discussing what caused the Ferengi to be portrayed the way they are is interesting, but isn't it also offputting that these correlations keep showing up in the same types of media, for the same types of characters?

You can correlate virtually any wrongdoing or trope with some minority or other having it perpetrated on them, though. All you have to do is dig or have a decent knowledge of history.

 

[Voadam]

The point of labeling things "evil" is to justify killing things and taking thier stuff. It's the ultimate expression of vigilante justice, conquest of the righteous and night making right.

There are other ways to look at the point of labeling things evil.

If you go back to Gygaxian origins I think the PCs are assumed to be greedy selfish heavily armed opportunists seeking gold and adventure, so neutral Conan and Gray Mouser templates who are not terrible, but not crusading heroes looking to exterminate unrighteous opposition.

Monster alignment seemed more a DM side descriptor of whether these creatures are generally actively hostile, neutral, or benevolent so that there can be a guide for the DM in portraying them rather than for players to have an approved target list.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

As a Jewish man, I see antisemitisim quite often in the world. I didn't(and still don't despite all the non-Jews telling me it's there) see it in Harry Potter, Watto or Ferengi.

Your constant emphasis and re-emphasis of your ethnos doesn't really have any bearing on this, and is getting very boring. It doesn't lend you any special insight into the transmission of cultural processes; processes of which you repeatedly demonstrate your obliviousness.

 

[Voranzovin]

They are a parody of capitalism, no matter its ethnicity. The Ferengies are capitalism pushed to its extreme limit.

To a lot of people, capitalism is synonymous with Jews. (And to an entirely different group of people, socialism is synonymous with Jews. Anti-Semitism is weird.)

As a Jewish man, I see antisemitisim quite often in the world. I didn't(and still don't despite all the non-Jews telling me it's there) see it in Harry Potter, Watto or Ferengi.

I disagree about Harry Potter and the Ferangi. The Ferangi as originally introduced could have been taken straight from early 20th century anti-Semitic cartoons (though they were redeemed later on by being given more depth in DS9), and while I think the goblins in the Harry Potter books are a very arguable case, their depiction in the movies is really specifically, unavoidably a Jewish caricature.

However, I absolutely hate it when non-Jews try to tell us how to think or feel about Jewish subjects, so you have my sympathy there.

Your constant emphasis and re-emphasis of your ethnos doesn't really have any bearing on this, and is getting very boring. It doesn't lend you any special insight into the transmission of cultural processes; processes of which you repeatedly demonstrate your obliviousness.

Case in point.

Yes, the opinions actual Jews have about Anti-Semitism and how much different depictions do (or do not) harm us matters a hell of a lot more then yours does.

 

[Faolyn]

Some of those things are remarkably specific. Especially the one about autopsies. It's actually hard to see how that comes about by accident or even unconsciously.

The autopsy thing was because the ferengi in question was murdered (made to look like a suicide) and there needed to be extra drama involved. Actual ferengi death custom involves desiccating the remains and dividing them up into 52 containers to be sold at auction, and damaging the body (even by violent death) reduces the number of containers that can be sold. (Thank you, Memory Alpha, for the details.)

It should be noted that women weren't excluded from selling things; they were excluded from everything, including clothing (no head coverings).

Ferengi were characterized as having "exaggerated features and embodying wanton greed," but in Star Trek, nearly every species has some sort of exaggerated feature (due to limited SFX and lack of CGI aliens) and embodies a particular trait, since Star Trek is all about the Planets of Hats.

Honestly, the list is just silly. Are they really saying that hiring Jewish actors is somehow antisemitic?

 

[Remathilis]

He struck me as evoking specifically Arab stereotypical traits/caricature. Arabs are also a Semitic ethnicity and share a lot of historical and cultural background with Jews so there can be a lot of overlap but the prominence of the slave owning/trading and a desert street market context seems to point more at Arab. And the evil Arab is a trope.

Jabba's palace is ripe with the same imagery: desert sands, scantly clad slave girls, rotund barbaric guards, a scheming majordomo, etc. The whole thing was a love letter to the old serials that inspired George, right down to Flash vs Ming the Merciless.

I doubt George was attempting in either situation to be racist against certain peoples, but rather to use the story tropes he grew up on in a new way.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Yes, the opinions actual Jews have about Anti-Semitism and how much different depictions do (or do not) harm us matters a hell of a lot more then yours does.

My objection is to the use of ethnos as a bludgeon to beat down and deflect objective critique of cultural processes.

Now, if I were to say I identify as Jewish - because I recognize the implicit complexity involved in that automoniker - how would that change your opinion of my words?

 

[Maxperson]

Your constant emphasis and re-emphasis of your ethnos doesn't really have any bearing on this, and is getting very boring. It doesn't lend you any special insight into the transmission of cultural processes; processes of which you repeatedly demonstrate your obliviousness.

Yep. Outsiders always know better. It gets old being told what I should be offended by and how non-Jews know better what antisemitism is.

 

[Remathilis]

Nothing fishy here. Move along.

Oooh, you missed the dwarves of Eberron. They have the mark of Warding, which makes them ideal bankers who control the whole of banking. They have all the classic dwarf traits (greedy, dour, warlike) plus the newest Eberron book says they are infatuated with the daelkyr, a long buried race of inhuman flesh-crafters and cosmic horrors.

I wonder when people say "I want D&D races to be more like Eberron" if they mean the jewish dwarves, the Mongol elves, the headhunter drow, and the First World halflings, or do they just mean the non-evil orcs?

 

[Remathilis]

You're close as well. You kill things and take their stuff in D&D because they oppose and attack you, or are labeled monsters. Alignment isn't really very relevant to that. If a band of mercenaries(most of whom are probably not evil) is attacking the castle of the lord that hired you to defend it, you kill them and take their stuff.

Things are labeled good, evil or neutral in D&D because they behave in a good, evil or neutral manner. Not to justify killing them and taking their stuff. Simple opposition is all it takes in the game for the killing and looting.

My point stands that it doesn't matter if the orc is born inherently Evil, is choosing to do evil, or is simply causing evil in the process of doing their job (the banality of evil), we are still using mortality to justify violence.

If we take away that morality, we just have a group of people with conflicting interests, and the question of killing them and stealing their possessions becomes murky enough that it makes the PCs no better than the monster's they fight. Nitchie might be amused, but it makes for an unsatisfying game session.

Personally, I prefer to keep realpolitik out of my gaming exactly because the real-world is full of conflicts and combatants that can't cleanly be labeled as Evil and the world is messed up place because of it. I'd rather my escapist fiction be an escape from such heavy thinking.