D&D General Payn's Ponderings: The Fighter's identity; or, what's left after the combat pillar?

[tetrasodium]

I feel EVERY save-or-suck (including spells and nonmagic features) should be impossible until the target is at least bloodied at half hit points.

Until then, the targets guard is up. Only after bloodied, does one notice that the target is getting sloppy and leaving openings at times.

A lot of those would need to be dramatically improved. Take for example the concentration spell Web. Starting out you have the minor two surface triviality that often makes it unusable outdoors or against flying creatures. Next the targets get a free dex save to ignore it when the caster casts & begins concentrating on it. Next the target's turn rolls around & they get a second no action cost save for free. If the target has failed two saves now they can make a strength check to just ignore it provided they are not either capable of using ranged abilities or more likely already where they want to be in reach of their preferred target where they intend to remain for the rest of the combat.

Spells like web used to be part of a caster's bread & butter because they ignored spell resistance & were much more reliable with higher costs to ignore but in o5e magic resistance means that the target needs to fail four dex saves before maybe being mildly hindered. Adding a bloodied requirement would just ensure that the targets were all but certain to be exactly where they intended to stay before it can be used.

 

[FrogReaver]

Every soldier I've known--and there have been a few--has been noticeably more disciplined, careful, orderly, polite, punctual, and environmentally aware than any non-military persons around them. They've also been generally tougher: more instinctively willing and able to do hard things, not fear doing them, and not get distracted.

Surely these traits could be wound into some kind of buffs to social skills, couldn't they?

IMO, the fighters inability to find a niche in social aspects of the game is more of a structural issue with the game because it simplifies social interaction into insight, deception, persuasion and intimidation. Anything non-magical that doesn't neatly fit into one of those generic boxes isn't going to work well.

Take your suggestion. 1) None of the traits you listed universally apply toward any of those skills 2) In some worlds/settings those traits may actually detract from social skills 3) It narrows the types of characters the Fighter represents too far. Not all Fighters were trained soliders afterall (Soldier is a background).

 

[HammerMan]

I feel EVERY save-or-suck (including spells and nonmagic features) should be impossible until the target is at least bloodied at half hit points.

Until then, the targets guard is up. Only after bloodied, does one notice that the target is getting sloppy and leaving openings at times.

in my more detailed idea it would be 1)bring back bloodied and 2) x times per day/short rest target a bloodied enemy as an action. they make a save if they fail they die, if the succeed you deal damage as if you hit with a single non crit attack. (since this would be level 11+ that is giving up 3 attacks for maybe dead or 1 hit)

 

[HammerMan]

I think that fighters that have superiority dice should get the options to add them to non combat ability checks.

Some kind of Grit or heroic effort mechanic, like proficiency times long rest fighters can increase their jump or give them selves advantage on Strength checks.
Mid to high level fighters should be able to gain some inspiring presence or leadership ability to aid the party resist rear effects or intimidation checks.

tbh the psi knight is what I would base it on... but I would give some things instead of spend a die "as long as you have 1 or more die"

give them parry reaction (self or adjacent allie) reduce damage by die roll+dex mod... special if you have a shield roll 2 dice. but this doesn't cost a die you just have to have 1 left.

give them the ability to as an action when they have to make a str/dex/con check (or skill related) they can roll the die and add it to the d20 roll. but this doesn't cost a die you just have to have 1 left

give them might leap. spend a die, roll it add 5x the die roll to feet you jump

give them super speed. as long as you have a die you can add it to initiative as long as you are not surprised. You can also spend one and add 5x the roll to your ground movement for 1 minute (concentration)

give them extra damage. Once per turn when you hit with a weapon attack spend a die to add it to your damage.

give them a spider climb like ability. As an action spend a die, roll it and for up to 10 minutes (concetration) you can move up walls and along ceilings with no problem (just being strong grip str) at a speed of die rollx5ft

give them mage armor (well initral armor form the 3.0 psionic book) as long as you have a die you have your base AC calculated as 13+dex (alternatively you could just give unarmed defense of a second stat) helping unarmerd fighters

Here is a BIG one... give them Legend Lore... yup a 6th level divination spell. Spend a die and 10 minutes investigating and thinking... it brings to mind a story, a parable, a hint a clue.

lesser then that but even detect magic/identify. As long as you have a die you can as an action feel for the flow of magic, get detect magic at range of touch... spend a die to recognize the feeling an item gives you to identify it. (tbf I think detect magic should be a cantrip anyway for casters too)

I can't belive it's not lightning bolt... Spend a die roll it adding 5x the roll to your movement, then move (as part of this action like a dash) and every creature you end up adjacent to during this move you can make an attack against (1 attack per even if you pass the same target twice) and if you hit or miss add the number rolled (die for speed) to the damage (so yes damage on a miss)

mountain hammer. Spend a die, then make an attack (so if attack misses you still lose die) if the attack hits add a number of d6 equal to your prof to damage, and all of the damage ignores resistance.

 

[ART!]

Another thing as part of my earlier movie/tv action hero approach to this: often, when action heroes take damage they get more determined. It might be nice to have something reflecting that, with a dial you can adjust for the tone your table is going for.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Another thing as part of my earlier movie/tv action hero approach to this: often, when action heroes take damage they get more determined. It might be nice to have something reflecting that, with a dial you can adjust for the tone your table is going for.

The good old, bloodied, second wind, break out the encounter powers from 4e.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Another thing as part of my earlier movie/tv action hero approach to this: often, when action heroes take damage they get more determined. It might be nice to have something reflecting that, with a dial you can adjust for the tone your table is going for.

It would also pair nicely with the fighter's (usual) role as a front liner.

 

[HammerMan]

The good old, bloodied, second wind, break out the encounter powers from 4e.

bloodied was so great... triggering thing when you are bloodied, or when your enemy is bloodied. it is the #1 thing I want back

 

[Quickleaf]

I really appreciate the deep dive approach you're taking. Rather than suggest precise solutions – I've contributed to, and started, plenty of those threads – I'm going to try to keep this poetic and focus on concepts...

"The ranger watches over the hinterland and the paladin crusades for the temple, but the fighter safeguards the hearth. Kith and kin, hand in hand with hard-wrought will, these things in equal measure do a fighter make. The fighter may die today, but tomorrow a sister or cousin, child or nephew will pick up the fallen blade. This legacy endures for the hearth fire must endure."

First time I can recall quoting myself, but I wanted to get the concepts down in narrative form first before unpacking what these might look like as rough draft of potential exploration/social features for the fighter. These aren't all necessarily keepers as my intent is to push the boundaries of how we imagine the fighter class just a bit - when there's dissonance / pushback, that's when you know that the design needs to recede back to more familiar territory.

-"safeguards the hearth" is a concept I've played with before when I devised "camp talents" for my fighter re-write, things like "your torch burns longer and brighter when you wield it" or "you can confer your companions a boon when you keep watch."

-"legacy" implies being able to transfer something from your current character should they die to a new character in the same lineage or household & perhaps suggests the fighter have some kind of "teach others" leadership feature

"Fortune there may be, but that is not why we fight. Vengeance, justice, defending the meek. Yea, these too, but they are not why we fight. Principles fail, muscles exhaust. For those of us who always hear the distant echo of steel against steel, it is the fight itself that calls us. The challenge, the trial, the test. To overcome ourselves, to bask in the glory of sweat, tears, and stained and weary grip – this is why we embrace whatever the forge of life places in our path. Not to shrink away, not to navigate around, but to walk into that furnace, unafraid."

-"to overcome ourselves" might suggest the fighter can delay suffering from a condition (esp. being charmed) for a round

-the bits about "challenge" might be a floating bonus or advantage that gets attached to a certain non-combat challenge that the fighter is focused on, so it might be the challenge of reaching a cold-hearted person, but that's pretty darn vague

- "glory" might be a reputation that the fighter player can define for themself (rather than relying on the DM or something like the alignment system to imply their PC's reputation), and it might be a moving target, allowing the player to declare "my reputation in this town or among this group is X."

"With a hard gaze, the mercenary watched the pair of bandits looting the granary. He didn't need to speak. The weight of what he'd seen, what he'd done, spoke volumes through those narrowed eyes. Each of the looters could see their own moral failings reflected back at themselves, a wild story of dangerous possibilities flaring to life in their mind's eye. Slowly the men lowered the sacks and explained themselves, backing away. The mercenary knew that if he met those men again, he could count on their heeding his demands."

-"didn't need to speak" is an interesting one that implies a force of personality extending beyond words to... for lack of a better word... a certain stance... I could even see this being a pass card for certain situations like a riddle before a sphinx, a king asking for each PC to introduce themselves or make a report, etc.

-"reflected back at themselves" suggests the fighter might be able to determine certain facets of a creature's personality and/or stats, akin to the Battlemaster fighter & Mastermind rogue

-"heeding his demands" implies that the fighter player gets more narrative control around interpreting what a successful Intimidation check means, allowing them to call upon favors from those they've previously intimidated

 

[payn]

This is the stuff right here!

-"safeguards the hearth" is a concept I've played with before when I devised "camp talents" for my fighter re-write, things like "your torch burns longer and brighter when you wield it" or "you can confer your companions a boon when you keep watch."

I like where this is headed. Maybe, the fighter's instincts and experience allows them to make defensive decisions about where to camp. Those on watch receive a perception bonus? Perhaps, the party is granted a bonus on waking to danger?

I can see this expanding out to other classes too. The rogue is about detecting intruders before they attack. The fighter is about defense after intruders have attacked. The ranger is focused on finding camp sites near clean water and food. Etc...

-"legacy" implies being able to transfer something from your current character should they die to a new character in the same lineage or household & perhaps suggests the fighter have some kind of "teach others" leadership feature

I like it. Maybe some type of fame mechanic. When you wield the weapon or armor of a famous fighter it gives you bonuses in places that fighter was known.
NPC "Where did you get that sword?"
PC "It was my mentors."
NPC "If they trusted you with it, then I will trust what you have to say"

-"to overcome ourselves" might suggest the fighter can delay suffering from a condition (esp. being charmed) for a round

Perhaps a fighters training has given them discipline that allows them to go a little bit further in extreme conditions? Last a little longer with limited food and water rations? Shrug off a condition for 1 round early on, maybe 1D4 rounds at higher level?

-the bits about "challenge" might be a floating bonus or advantage that gets attached to a certain non-combat challenge that the fighter is focused on, so it might be the challenge of reaching a cold-hearted person, but that's pretty darn vague

Up thread somebody mentioned using superiority dice in non-combat salutations. I think that could fit nicely with this idea.

- "glory" might be a reputation that the fighter player can define for themself (rather than relying on the DM or something like the alignment system to imply their PC's reputation), and it might be a moving target, allowing the player to declare "my reputation in this town or among this group is X."

This seems to piggy back off the legacy piece above. Maybe this is where I got the idea for the rep bonus for the new PC?

-"didn't need to speak" is an interesting one that implies a force of personality extending beyond words to... for lack of a better word... a certain stance... I could even see this being a pass card for certain situations like a riddle before a sphinx, a king asking for each PC to introduce themselves or make a report, etc.

This too feels like a legacy item. "Your reputation precedes you"

-"reflected back at themselves" suggests the fighter might be able to determine certain facets of a creature's personality and/or stats, akin to the Battlemaster fighter & Mastermind rogue

Perhaps a focus on humanoid NPC tactics? "These brigands prefer to attack in number and use range weapons to their advantage" Even better, this is a read on a crime scene or settled battlefield. The fighter can deduce how the fight went and other facts.

-"heeding his demands" implies that the fighter player gets more narrative control around interpreting what a successful Intimidation check means, allowing them to call upon favors from those they've previously intimidated

Another tie into the legacy idea? The stronger your fame the longer lasting the effects of your social encounters?

Great stuff Quickleaf! Exactly what I was looking for.