D&D General How do players feel about DM fudging?

[LordEntrails]

An observation I've made after reading the last few pages, why is it that we as a community are so opposed to discussing fudging with our players when we have all pretty much gotten behind the use of X cards, defining Lines & Veils, and other safety tools.

These seem to me to be pretty closely related, yet their seems to be pretty unanimous consent that satey tools are a good thing and even if never used should always be available to players. Yet then we seem to have so many folks in this thread that refuse to provide a similar level of openness for fudging discussions.

I suspect there is a lot to unpack in that observation.

 

[billd91]

An observation I've made after reading the last few pages, why is it that we as a community are so opposed to discussing fudging with our players when we have all pretty much gotten behind the use of X cards, defining Lines & Veils, and other safety tools.

These seem to me to be pretty closely related, yet their seems to be pretty unanimous consent that satey tools are a good thing and even if never used should always be available to players. Yet then we seem to have so many folks in this thread that refuse to provide a similar level of openness for fudging discussions.

I suspect there is a lot to unpack in that observation.

You’re equating fudging with safety tool triggers?

 

[Irlo]

You’re equating fudging with safety tool triggers?

Contrasting, not equating. One we talk about. The other we don't.

At least, that's how I read it.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

You’re equating fudging with safety tool triggers?

Speaking only for myself, there's nothing on the Lines & Veils lists of topics that I've wanted a safety tool for (I totally get why those lists are vital in general and for others). But if there was some tool that either notified me at the start of a campaign or one-shot that the GM was going to fudge, or where I could register that it's not okay with me, I'd not only be really grateful, but incredibly relieved.

 

[Fifth Element]

Contrasting, not equating. One we talk about. The other we don't.

At least, that's how I read it.

But if not equating, then the comparison is useless. If you're contrasting them, then the fact that there is a contrast between them means that differences in how people talk about them should be thoroughly unsurprising. We do we talk about one but not the other? How about - because they're very different things, so the fact that we talk about one has no bearing on whether we talk about the other?

 

[Ovinomancer]

But if not equating, then the comparison is useless. If you're contrasting them, then the fact that there is a contrast between them means that differences in how people talk about them should be thoroughly unsurprising. We do we talk about one but not the other? How about - because they're very different things, so the fact that we talk about one has no bearing on whether we talk about the other?

I'm not sure there's much difference. We have safety tools because there's a need to make sure one person isn't assuming a thing is okay when it is distressing or harmful to another. We aren't ever judging if these things pass some purity test of acceptable to apply the tools. With fudging, we have a set of v people that seem to be unable to b grasp that it could be upsetting to others and who have taken it upon themselves to choose to include content for others. Seems like these are right in line. I don't have to say that my dislike of fudging is equal to avoiding a phobia because these tools don't have hierarchies of judgement about what is and isn't acceptable and do not equate or compare what someone might leverage the tools to block in order to judge if that is appropriate.

 

[Mort]

I'm not sure there's much difference. We have safety tools because there's a need to make sure one person isn't assuming a thing is okay when it is distressing or harmful to another. We aren't ever judging if these things pass some purity test of acceptable to apply the tools. With fudging, we have a set of v people that seem to be unable to b grasp that it could be upsetting to others and who have taken it upon themselves to choose to include content for others. Seems like these are right in line. I don't have to say that my dislike of fudging is equal to avoiding a phobia because these tools don't have hierarchies of judgement about what is and isn't acceptable and do not equate or compare what someone might leverage the tools to block in order to judge if that is appropriate.

Agreed.

Further, there's a taboo level in discussing fudging, I see in many groups, that's not present even when discussing x-rated content!

This taboo needs to be overcome for EVERYONE at the table to have as positive a playing experience as possible.

 

[LordEntrails]

I'm not going to say if I'm equating or contrasting. That would, imo, just be used as an excuse to distract from the discussion or derail it.

What I'm going to say is that some people see fudging as being lied to, and some people are triggered (in someway) by being lied to. Therefore, how is that different than any other trigger that safety tools are designed to help deal with? Why would we as a community chose to allow for the importance of addressing sexual violence, but not integrity? (Perhaps there is a better term than integrity, I'm open to suggestions, I was unable to come up with one.)

 

[Irlo]

I'm not going to say if I'm equating or contrasting. That would, imo, just be used as an excuse to distract from the discussion or derail it.

What I'm going to say is that some people see fudging as being lied to, and some people are triggered (in someway) by being lied to. Therefore, how is that different than any other trigger that safety tools are designed to help deal with? Why would we as a community chose to allow for the importance of addressing sexual violence, but not integrity? (Perhaps there is a better term than integrity, I'm open to suggestions, I was unable to come up with one.)

Ooof. It's a game and we're playing a game. Part of that game involves concealment. What should be concealed and under what conditions can be debated, of course, but to frame that concealment as lack of integrity is misguided and perhaps divisive.

BUT -- knowing now that some people do feel lied to with hidden methods of resolutions of in-game actions, I agree it makes perfect sense to have conversations about that. It's not a conversation about integrity or honesty. It's a conversation about how you plan to play a game.

 

[LordEntrails]

Ooof. It's a game and we're playing a game. Part of that game involves concealment. What should be concealed and under what conditions can be debated, of course, but to frame that concealment as lack of integrity is misguided and perhaps divisive.

Well, some people do. But lets stay on topic