Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2E - does it play better than it looks at first glance + guides/resources for new DMs

[Retreater]

Hey there. Former naysayer (maybe hater) of PF2 here to give my perspective, even though I've come around to it - actually preferring it to 5e at this point.
There's a lot of conditions - too many for my liking, actually. You'll want Foundry to apply the math if you're doing it online or use the condition cards if you're doing a physical game at a table. It tells you what the effect is and reminds you to apply it.
The situational bonuses don't come up as often as I expected they would. You've got the equivalent of a +2 bonus if you're attacking a prone or flanked enemy (that's been in the d20 system for 20 years). You've got magic item enhancements that are always there. You've got spell effects like Bless (which are true in any edition). In my experience, other situational bonuses just don't come up often enough to really bog down the game.
The tightness of the challenge level math is a real issue if you're using pre-written adventures. The default is more challenging than I like to run. So I would design mostly Low or Moderate encounters - Severe encounters I would be hesitant to use with the exception of a boss that the party has had time to research weaknesses/immunities beforehand and have a clear way of escaping. The other challenge levels (Trivial or Extreme) I just wouldn't use.
If you're using a premade adventure, run it for characters one level higher than the suggested range - at least until they have learned good tactics and some system mastery. It can be brutally challenging. (I was running their first AP - Age of Ashes - and by the book we were averaging a TPK every other session, and this was with 5 characters instead of 4.)
The Multi-Attack penalty tripped me up at first, but I got the hang of it after a couple sessions. It's a vital part of the 3-action economy, which I think is one of the biggest selling points of PF2.
As for resources I'd recommend: there's a good content creator on YouTube called The Rules Lawyer. He has a series contrasting 5e and PF2 and gives lots of advice for players and GMs. Here's an example of a first combat. If anybody wants to do a quick 1-2 hour session of a PFS Quest on Foundry, give me a shout. It would probably be easier to explain in an actual game than on a message board.

 

[JThursby]

(I was running their first AP - Age of Ashes - and by the book we were averaging a TPK every other session, and this was with 5 characters instead of 4.)

I have heard lots of stories like this from Age of Ashes. If there's any bit of advice I can give for what to run as a PF2e GM, it's "don't run Age of Ashes." Pick literally any other Adventure Path. Abomination Vaults is most peoples favorite (including me), Strength of Thousands is also one that people have high marks for. For smaller adventures Malevolence is a great level 3-5 adventure.
Also don't run Fall of Plaguestone or The Slithering, they're also not great.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I have heard lots of stories like this from Age of Ashes. If there's any bit of advice I can give for what to run as a PF2e GM, it's "don't run Age of Ashes." Pick literally any other Adventure Path. Abomination Vaults is most peoples favorite (including me), Strength of Thousands is also one that people have high marks for. For smaller adventures Malevolence is a great level 3-5 adventure.
Also don't run Fall of Plaguestone or The Slithering, they're also not great.

Noted. I always listen to advice re: not running stuff, because any time I've ignored it, that person has been right!

Are any of those particularly good for or easy to adapt to a 3-person party? When I start out that's likely how many we'll have if I run PF2E (might be 5 but only if I'm very lucky).

 

[payn]

Noted. I always listen to advice re: not running stuff, because any time I've ignored it, that person has been right!

Are any of those particularly good for or easy to adapt to a 3-person party? When I start out that's likely how many we'll have if I run PF2E (might be 5 but only if I'm very lucky).

I'll try and dig up the posting but Retreater wrote up some notes on what he would do if running Abomination Vault again. I think this one would be tough for 3 PCs as its supposed to be a mega-dungeon and I don't think PF2 does that style of play well.

 

[JThursby]

I think this one would be tough for 3 PCs as its supposed to be a mega-dungeon and I don't think PF2 does that style of play well.

My players have been enjoying it, and I like running it. They just have to find the space to do their 10 minute recovery activities and then their good to go after a tough encounter.

Are any of those particularly good for or easy to adapt to a 3-person party? When I start out that's likely how many we'll have if I run PF2E (might be 5 but only if I'm very lucky).

All of them are balanced for a party of 4. In general the easiest adjustment to do is to shift the level of the encounter up one for a party of 5 or down one for a party of 3. This can be easily done by applying the weak or elite adjustments to all the creatures in an encounter. If you're running in person this can be a bit of a pain. If you're running on Foundry it's as easy as clicking on the Elite or Weak buttons on the NPC sheet, the system does the rest for you.

Edit: Don't do this for a very low level party, as these adjustments throw the lowest levels a bit out of wack. I'd just run stuff as written for bigger or smaller parties until about level 3.

 

[JThursby]

The one big slow down in my time with PF2 was learning conditions. They typically just give a -x penalty depending on severity of level inflicted

Thought I'd address this while I have my Foundry server up. I haven't had any issue with this since the VTT system takes care of it very well. Conditions can be applied easily by right clicking on a creature and applying one of the status effects manually, or by clicking and dragging an effect onto a creature. Here's a basic example: a PC used the Demoralize action on an enemy, the system detected it was a Critical Success and created the Frightened 2 effect to place on the enemy. All I have to do as the GM is drag that effect onto the creature and it's good to go, it knows that Frightened is a Status Penalty and won't stack with other Status Penalties, and it will apply it to the math of all relevant checks automatically. Once the effect expires I can get rid of it by just right clicking it. This functionality is all baked into the system, I did no additional prep to get this working.

 

[payn]

Thought I'd address this while I have my Foundry server up. I haven't had any issue with this since the VTT system takes care of it very well. Conditions can be applied easily by right clicking on a creature and applying one of the status effects manually, or by clicking and dragging an effect onto a creature. Here's a basic example: a PC used the Demoralize action on an enemy, the system detected it was a Critical Success and created the Frightened 2 effect to place on the enemy. All I have to do as the GM is drag that effect onto the creature and it's good to go, it knows that Frightened is a Status Penalty and won't stack with other Status Penalties, and it will apply it to the math of all relevant checks automatically. Once the effect expires I can get rid of it by just right clicking it. This functionality is all baked into the system, I did no additional prep to get this working.

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I think what we ran into was conditions and if they are reapplied and how to save against them. For example, poisoned in how you get hit with it, how you are effected, and how it starts all over if you are hit again. It was kinda messy when we went through that learning process.

Yes, Foundry is awesome for this stuff.

 

[JThursby]

I think what we ran into was conditions and if they are reapplied and how to save against them.

Ah, Afflictions are kinda obnoxious. Same goes with Counteracting. Hopefully they'll be automated more soon so that I don't have to flip to those rules whenever they come up. Still, it's a minor blemish on an otherwise elegant rule-set.

 

[payn]

Ah, Afflictions are kinda obnoxious. Same goes with Counteracting. Hopefully they'll be automated more soon so that I don't have to flip to those rules whenever they come up. Still, it's a minor blemish on an otherwise elegant rule-set.

Yeap, one of the few bottlenecks we encountered. Its one of those things thats complex but once you have run it a few times you grok it.

 

[Retreater]

I'll try and dig up the posting but Retreater wrote up some notes on what he would do if running Abomination Vault again. I think this one would be tough for 3 PCs as its supposed to be a mega-dungeon and I don't think PF2 does that style of play well.

Pathfinder 2E - PF2: Second Attempt Post Mortem

I'm posting this to collect my thoughts and share the experience I had running PF2 for a second group in a second campaign. In no way am I trying to fault the players in either of the groups (some of whom frequent these boards), nor am I saying that anyone's opinions of PF2 are wrong. If you...

www.enworld.org

Here's the link to the thread.
If anyone is wanting some constructive (+) assistance in running it or adapting it, let me know.