D&D 5E Why AD&D Rocks and 3e - 5e Mocks all over AC...

[Dausuul]

Anyone know the answer?

It's an aesthetic choice.

Realistically, most PCs should be kitted out in full plate, because it's just better than other types of armor. The only reasons to not wear plate are a) it doesn't exist in your world or b) you can't afford it*. Neither of these generally applies to D&D adventurers.

But many players want a different visual of their character; the lightly armored duelist, the wizard in flowing robes. So D&D adds assorted balancing factors to make such PCs viable. Limiting Dex bonuses for medium/heavy armor is one such factor. The equally-unrealistic proficiency requirement is another.

*Actually there is a third reason, which is that when you're facing a huge foe like a giant or a dragon, armor is nothing but dead weight. A giant's fist or a dragon's bite will crumple up your fancy plate armor like tinfoil; your only hope is to evade the blow, so you want to be as lightly equipped as possible. But this requires a whole different combat model for D&D, and it also means you lose the visual of the knight in shining armor squaring off against a dragon.

 

[Greg Benage]

Imagine that. A bunch of well-read wargamers got it right.

Yeah, those guys are known for nothing if not their accurate depictions of historical arms and armor!

If anything, the video suggests the AD&D movement penalties for "bulky" armor are misguided. Why is a guy in full plate moving at half speed?!?

 

[ninjayeti]

Yeah, those guys are known for nothing if not their accurate depictions of historical arms and armor!

If anything, the video suggests the AD&D movement penalties for "bulky" armor are misguided. Why is a guy in full plate moving at half speed?!?

This. AD&D reduced your movement by HALF if you were wearing plate, scale, or splint armor. See 1E DMG p. 27. That is way more restrictive than taking away your DEX bonus to AC.

If anything this video debunks the idea that heavy armor slows your movement. I'm skeptical it proves that your could fight like Bruce Lee if your were dressed like Sir Lancelot.

 

[Jer]

But many players want a different visual of their character; the lightly armored duelist, the wizard in flowing robes. So D&D adds assorted balancing factors to make such PCs viable. Limiting Dex bonuses for medium/heavy armor is one such factor. The equally-unrealistic proficiency requirement is another.

Eh - the restrictions on heavy armor go back into AD&D tho. If you were a wizard you weren't allowed to wear armor of any kind. Thieves couldn't wear most kinds of armor, etc. It wasn't an aesthetic choice then, it was more of what was considered "balance" back in the day - a wizard who could cast spells and wear full plate? Overpowered! Got to put some kind of restriction on that one!

And the reasons for the armor changes in 3e were mostly the same. Thinking the game needed to be "balanced" between different classes and how to do that while doing it differently than the AD&D model which had been criticized quite a lot for decades at that point. (The "you can't do that" model vs. the "you can do it with a penalty" model is one major reason for it, for starters).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Probably a combination of a few factors. Likely elements include:

1. Trying to make Dex slightly less of a "God Stat", critical for all characters.
2. Trying to make both light-armored and heavy-armored characters come out with similar total ACs, thus making both archetypes similarly viable in combat.
3. Simple verisimilitude for most gamers. I've run around in armor and out of it, and while strong, athletic people in armor can absolutely still move athletically, the difference in how you can move is stark and apparent when you're wearing 30-50lbs of extra weight vs when you're not. Hence why gymnasts and dancers wear as light kit as they possibly can, to maximize performance.

I think factor 2 is pretty key. As designers, do we want to make heavy armor compulsory/eliminate the swashbuckling fighter as an archetype (at least without the aid of magic) in a game where heavy armor is allowed?

Do we want the heavy armored fighters to be so much harder to hit than everyone else that it makes encounter scaling more difficult?

Of course, other approaches could be taken, like giving heavy armor Damage Resistance.

I would have preferred DR. As it is, due to Stealth penalties and high cost, heavy armor is demonstrably worse.

 

[dave2008]

Imagine that. A bunch of well-read wargamers got it right.

Not really of course, but good enough for most

 

[dave2008]

This is actually somewhat tongue in cheek...so don't take the title all THAT seriously. This isn't REALLY an AD&D vs. other editions thing...it's more of a discussion on the why's and what's of AC in 3e and 5e.


AD&D allows the full DEX modifier.

I found it ridiculous how 3e decided that your DEX modifier to AC was limited due to the armor type. Even more so with 5e.

Why did they even start this trend (Back in 3e) of limiting the amount of DEX modifier you could have to your AC depending on the type of armor you wore?

Ridiculous assumptions regarding armor? Fallacious views of how mobile knights were?

Anyone know the answer?

Anyone share my view that the full DEX modifier should be allowed to be added to AC regardless of armor type. The only thing that happens by not allowing this is reducing Warrior efficiency. People already criticize the Warrior types for being weaker at higher levels...let them have that DEX bonus (if they even have it) to their AC!

As others have said, the video doesn't really show off dexterity (Acrobatics) it is showing off strength (Athletics). So it doesn't really suggest AD&D was any better than 3e & 5e in that regard.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Of course, the one thing that video about the platemail was missing is all the guys wearing a backpack full of camping gear and mountain climbing equipment, plus 3 or more different weapons like your standard D&D adventurer LOL!

In truth, I don't know if anyone would actually "adventure" in platemail since they'd have all that extra poundage of stuff they'd have to bring with them in addition to the weight of the armor. Reserve the plate for short battles of war when you don't need to carry all your equipment with you onto the field. But if you were going to be hiking 30 miles a day every day through the wilderness with a full pack, I dunno if anyone would even want to wear platemail even for the extra protection. The water loss and dehydration alone from all the sweating would probably kill you, heh heh!

 

[dave2008]

I would have preferred DR. As it is, due to Stealth penalties and high cost, heavy armor is demonstrably worse.

We use DR and we like it, but it is, supposedly, to cumbersome for some. So as an alternate perhaps simply a higher AC for heavy armor or temp HP?

 

[Dausuul]

I'm at the point in my D&D gaming where I actually wouldn't mind seeing stat bonuses removed entirely from the game. Or maybe only as bonuses/penalties to saving throws.

(Mildly tongue in cheek, but thinking about how little stats mattered in D&D unless you were a huge outlier compared to how core they became in the game with 3e makes me wonder about an alternate history where D&D did the opposite and demphasized stats even more instead of making them more important.)

I reached that point some years ago, and not even a little bit tongue in cheek: I think ability scores are a fundamentally bad mechanic, and D&D would be greatly improved by excising them. This is never going to happen, of course--they are the sacredest of cows--but I cheer every move WotC makes that reduces their impact on the game.

(I have tried excising them myself, but it's a much bigger project than it looks on the surface. The tentacles of stat modifiers snake through the rules into all kinds of places you don't expect.)

Eh - the restrictions on heavy armor go back into AD&D tho. If you were a wizard you weren't allowed to wear armor of any kind. Thieves couldn't wear most kinds of armor, etc. It wasn't an aesthetic choice then, it was more of what was considered "balance" back in the day - a wizard who could cast spells and wear full plate? Overpowered! Got to put some kind of restriction on that one!

When you get back into the TSR era, other factors come into play, yes--not only TSR's somewhat cockeyed take on game balance, but also the fact that Gygax and co. subscribed to a lot of widespread myths about medieval armaments that have since been debunked (mostly, that they were much heavier and clumsier than they really were).

However, neither of those is a driving force in 5E. Armor access is a minor balancing element, but the math adds up so that a rogue in studded leather and a fighter in plate have near-identical AC once the rogue's Dex hits 20, without either character having to make any tradeoffs. I can't see any reason to do that except aesthetics.