D&D 5E Is 5E Special

[Reynard]

For my money, there are just far too many tags in PF2 and their overuse is why after a few sessions we decided against continuing, despite really enjoying the action economy and the players liking the variety of character options.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I guess I just don't find 5E significantly better or worse than previous editions. That may not be saying much though. For example I threw Lollth (CR 30+) against a group of level 21 PCs in 4E. They curb stomped her without breaking a sweat.

In 5E I limit what the PCs can get and I'm kind of stingy on gold. Very few house rules required and I can threaten and engage PCs at all levels.

Basically, my experience boiled down to that last thing you mentioned being more of a put out for me. In principle we like getting to use feats, multiclassing, powerful magic items. So while the system works somewhat at the low end of those things, or with players who are comfortable not pushing the system, it breaks wide open when you don't want to be stingy, or dont want to wag you finger at player builds.

Incidentally, thats what i mean by the system "backloading" its problems

 

[doctorbadwolf]

After a lot of tinkering with 5e, multiple campaigns worth of play, back to basics tests, discussions with my players, an attempt at a power neutral magic item system, banned feats, a small career as a homebrewer on unearthedaracana, an attempt at the rules in the back of XGTE, I am proud to report we finally fixed it (by switching to pf2e)

Edit: to clarify, i imagine the difference is that i play with players who push character optimization pretty far, fairly consistently.

Yeah, the thing about high level optimization is that it changes your perception.

What your groups sees as major imbalances are, from the perspective of the average player and of experienced groups that don’t optimize to that extent, quite minor. I mean, most people I know who don’t discuss D&D online are surprised to learn that some people consider hexblades or PAM/GWM/etc builds unbalanced in 5e.

To not break it you have some options. Talk to your friends and say this combo is a bit much. Would prefer you don’t optimize it or tweak it a little. Done.

It is robust unless you WANT to wreak havoc and even then it’s not all that.

Anyone can get hosed by goblins with bounded accuracy.

Yep.

Yeah, not a selling point to me. 'Simplicity', bounded accuracy making it so you never feel like you're advancing, and the lack of mechanics beyond advantage are something I find boring.

Okay. I’m not trying to get you to like 5e, though, so it doesn’t really matter.

Easy to learn, with room to master, is a strong way to build a game for very broad appeal.

 

[Shardstone]

Don't think I've ever had a player break anything in a 5E game of mine that wasn't my own homebrew lol

 

[Reynard]

Don't think I've ever had a player break anything in a 5E game of mine that wasn't my own homebrew lol

The gloomstalker ranger in my Rime of the Frostmaiden game didn't break it per se, but it was a huge PITA.

 

[Shardstone]

The gloomstalker ranger in my Rime of the Frostmaiden game didn't break it per se, but it was a huge PITA.

Alpha strikes can make things a little harry for the antagonists....

 

[Oofta]

Basically, my experience boiled down to that last thing you mentioned being more of a put out for me. In principle we like getting to use feats, multiclassing, powerful magic items. So while the system works somewhat at the low end of those things, or with players who are comfortable not pushing the system, it breaks wide open when you don't want to be stingy, or dont want to wag you finger at player builds.

Incidentally, thats what i mean by the system "backloading" its problems

I think this is a different topic, but encounter building and balance has been more art than science in all editions.

I allow all feats, multi classing, I assume PCs will have a legendary item by 20th level and so on. I do limit access to a small number of magic items until higher levels (i.e. boots of flying).

All I can do is say that I have no problem with gonzo PCs, I always have infinite dragons. Even if some of them have several levels of sorcerer with still spell and powerful illustrations. Or just take a page from Tucker's kobolds and play the enemy smart.

TLDR: balance issues are nothing new in my experience.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Yeah, the thing about high level optimization is that it changes your perception.

What your groups sees as major imbalances are, from the perspective of the average player and of experienced groups that don’t optimize to that extent, quite minor. I mean, most people I know who don’t discuss D&D online are surprised to learn that some people consider hexblades or PAM/GWM/etc builds unbalanced in 5e.

The sad part? It wasn't even the elaborate builds, it was something as simple as fireball too, we just kind of came to the conclusion that there wasn't really much of a reason to play a martial beside literally "I want to play a martial" because the spell casters out damage everything. GWM and SS could kind of keep up, but we had already wanted to ban them because not all the fighting styles had them and we wanted to bring them into line, even after our buffs to TWF, and they interacted in a really messy way with magic items due to the +whatever bonuses on magic weapons, which was one of my original impetuses for trying to redesign magic items to make them less... intense. We realized GMs were straight tripling HP midfight on creatures much higher level than the party for the boss fights to be exciting, too. Basically the system was just breaking down around us, so we switched, we've been pretty much happy since.

 

[LordEntrails]

What I am saying is all edition would have been a success and sustained growth in the environment 5e fell into.

I don't think anything could have sustained 3.5E longer than it lived. Yes I know PF really kept it alive for years lnger, but that was because 4E was not a replacement for it.

As a side note I think this is what 50AE is going to address. Right now to play the game in the style it's being played, you need a minimum of 3 books, and maybe 4 or 5. I think 50AE will reset the starting point so that new players only have to worry about buying the PHB to get started.

Huh? Why would anyone need that many books for 5E? Maybe I'm a minimalist or something, but I think one of the the strengths of 5E is that players only need one book, maybe two. And DMs only need the adventure they are running and the Basic Rules.

Now, That's 'need', not what is wanted or useful!

5E would not exist if not for 4e

Nor 4E if not for 3.x. And 3.x for 2E, or 1E or OD&D.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I think this is a different topic, but encounter building and balance has been more art than science in all editions.

I allow all feats, multi classing, I assume PCs will have a legendary item by 20th level and so on. I do limit access to a small number of magic items until higher levels (i.e. boots of flying).

All I can do is say that I have no problem with gonzo PCs, I always have infinite dragons. Even if some of them have several levels of sorcerer with still spell and powerful illustrations. Or just take a page from Tucker's kobolds and play the enemy smart.

TLDR: balance issues are nothing new in my experience.

Encounter building is pretty good in the game we play now, I can design 5e encounters in the way you're talking about... but it was a lot more legwork for less payoff.