D&D 5E Is 5E Special

[The-Magic-Sword]

Everything you say here was iterated times and times again, and I can just say: in a game where everyone knows about this, using an optional rest rule solves all those problems.
In groups where people just don't play that way, 5e runs very smooth and is quite balanced.
I have DMed for both groups of people and find 5e better balanced than any edition before that (except for maybe 4e).

That said, I fully support changes to rest mechanics in 24 edition to get rid of those problems.

As those problems won't be noticed by the average beginner group, your estimation that 5e is successful despite its mechanics seems very flawed to me.

So, I tried a lot of things, and none of it worked very well, the meaning of back loading is that you don't notice the problems until you've already been playing for a while. So its not prohibitive to get new players, it would mainly manifest from invested players getting progressively more frustratedcafter a few years, and that is something I do see in 5e community spaces, I happen to know its the backstory for most of the membership of the pf2e subreddit, since we did polls and ots the most common refrain when 5e players ask the community why they switched.

In my games, it's really not up to the players to decide when they do and don't rest. It's up to me when I give the opportunities for short and long rests based on how I design the encounters. IMO one of the biggest mistakes DMs make with 5E is letting the players decide when they get to rest and not designing encounters according to how many how many encounters between rests.

I don't know your definition os "relatively accessible magic items", but I don't think we are playing the same game To me, magic items are not very accessible in the campaigns I run. Not until Tier 3 can the players normally impact what magic might be available to them, and then only as supporting items, not their main/major items.

Great post by the way. Not sure what you mean here at all about back loading or community pressures, but I do take this as a great example that no one system is for everyone. I gladly gave up 3.5/PF years ago and could only be brought back kicking and screaming. And PF2E holds exactly zero interest for me. But that's what is great about freedom, we all get to play the games that we enjoy.

Yes it was.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but any game can probably be interpreted as balanced if the players are comfortable with the idea of policing themselves or if the GM is satisfied excluding most of the material. For some GMs, their attitude is that they'd rather do that anyway, but for me it ends up being a massive drain on my energy as a GM. Every "additional thing" is another point of stress-- so coming up with reasons the players can't rest, working around or directly homebrewing boss encounters, designing new house rules to holdit togther, being stibgy with magic items, retraining my players expectations about wanting to use the cool stuff so they have "the right attitude^tm" was all too much.

When we did switch all of that just went away. I can focus more on doing fun things with the game, building on top of it, roleplaying, worldbuilding, i dont have to design scenarios to force them not to rest, they can have very free access to most magic items with some gm given onlys mixed in to spice it up. It just works, im thrilled.

 

[LordEntrails]

Need may have been a strong word, but in order to have the rules for decoupling ability scores from race, the artificer, alternate features for some classes, popular alternate races, a few solid sub-classes, etc, you'd need several books. People who've been playing for years might have picked those up slowly over time, but a new player would be looking at making several purchases at once to get those popular options. So with 50AE, I believe they will incorporate some of those rules into the core as a starting point for new players.

Um, you know a new player isn't likely to know about artificers or alternate races or alternate features. And Tasha's is all optional. So, none of those are needed anyway. S, the only time a new player needs more then 1 or 2 books is if they want t be a special snowflake.

Nothing wrong with being a special snowflake, not at all. But yes, "need" is more than a strong word, it is the wrong word.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Then what DID you say? Because as far as I can tell you have been simply repeating that same thing this whole time!

So I won't repeat it again. Try to make sense of it or leave it.

 

[Oofta]

I agree but admit to some desire for clarity in a few cases. For example, I wish stealth was a little more locked down…

Then again, I played AD&D! with theater of the mind much of the time!

In this case, I suppose it’s on us to make a ruling or just spitball it which we do and the game moves on…

Yeah, there's no way to please everyone. I mean, you're just wrong on the stealth rules, but I'll let it slide.

More seriously, I far prefer a game with options and flexibility. I don't think it would have been as successful without that ability to change the feel of the game.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

So, I tried a lot of things, and none of it worked very well, the meaning of back loading is that you don't notice the problems until you've already been playing for a while. So its not prohibitive to get new players, it would mainly manifest from invested players getting progressively more frustratedcafter a few years, and that is something I do see in 5e community spaces, I happen to know its the backstory for most of the membership of the pf2e subreddit, since we did polls and ots the most common refrain when 5e players ask the community why they switched.

I am happy for you that pf2e works for you. I can see some of the problems you speak of. I think it is ok to seek something different. I have bought into Level Up A5E for some things I miss in 5e, and if I find the time to invest more time into the game I will probably play it.

I am looking forward to the 24 edition and hope some of my concerns (especially with the adventuring day) will be adressed, and I hope it will not change too much.
Then I will have 2 games. One more for beginners and one for players who like to invest a bit more time.

 

[LordEntrails]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but any game can probably be interpreted as balanced if the players are comfortable with the idea of policing themselves or if the GM is satisfied excluding most of the material. For some GMs, their attitude is that they'd rather do that anyway, but for me it ends up being a massive drain on my energy as a GM. Every "additional thing" is another point of stress-- so coming up with reasons the players can't rest, working around or directly homebrewing boss encounters, designing new house rules to holdit togther, being stibgy with magic items, retraining my players expectations about wanting to use the cool stuff so they have "the right attitude^tm" was all too much.

IMO there is no game in which the players do not need to police themselves. Whether that is an RPG or a game of basketball. Playing like a jerk is being a jerk. Self policing, or what society simple calls 'being respectful of others' is a social norm that I don't want to give up. Even when playing an RPG. As a GM do I police myself? Do I expect my players to police themselves? Absolutely. It's a matter of degree and appropriateness for the situation. I doubt their is an RPG out there that can't be "broken" or made 'un-fun' if some self-policing is not done.

I don't think of it as coming up with reasons why the party can't rest, but rather coming up with reasons they can. Rest requires safety, who says the world around the PCs is safe? The GM and only the GM does. (edi: note, my players tell me the world they adventure in is dangerous, their choice!) So, as GM I have to come up with reasons it is safe for the party to be able to rest. But that's not draining to me.

I think it all comes down to a difference. One of us sees the glass half full, the other half empty, and we are both right.

Note, my 3+ year campaign has had none of the issues you've seen. The PCs got legendary magic items in Tier 2. They have left behind magic items because they can't attune to more. They have more consumables than they can carry. I'm not stingy with magic. IMO it means that they get to use all sorts of cool stuff. I also get to use all sorts of cool NPCs, and I get to throw all sorts of situations their way, without worrying about if they can get out of it or even survive. Not that PC death isn't real and TPKs not a possibility, because they PCs have options, even if it is to run away or roll up a new character.

When we did switch all of that just went away. I can focus more on doing fun things with the game, building on top of it, roleplaying, worldbuilding, i dont have to design scenarios to force them not to rest, they can have very free access to most magic items with some gm given onlys mixed in to spice it up. It just works, im thrilled.

Great! Glad you and your players found the game for you So in PF2 you give the players every magic items ever published because you don't want to police them? And doing so does not drain any of your energy? That's amazing! And tells me that PF2E is not the game for me and my group.

Again, great you have found the system that works for you. I'm a firm believer no one RPG is best for everyone. But that does not mean that 5E isn't special in some way. I think the growth in the player base and the financial success are simple indicators that it is indeed special in some way.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Yeah, there's no way to please everyone. I mean, you're just wrong on the stealth rules, but I'll let it slide.

More seriously, I far prefer a game with options and flexibility. I don't think it would have been as successful without that ability to change the feel of the game.

Hell, maybe I am!

I guess it’s better than being a kid and using HS and MS to try to get a paltry d8 X 2 or 3!

I think we have it worked out. A lot of minor illusion walls lets you hide…being quiet is also a stealth roll.

It’s not bad. It’s just that I am a middling DM!

 

[Oofta]

Hell, maybe I am!

I guess it’s better than being a kid and using HS and MS to try to get a paltry d8 X 2 or 3!

I think we have it worked out. A lot of minor illusion walls lets you hide…being quiet is also a stealth roll.

It’s not bad. It’s just that I am a middling DM!

The first step to recovery is to admit that you have a problem.

On the other hand my standards for DMing might be a bit low. If the players aren't throwing their dice st you in frustration, you're doing it right. But even then I'm not one to complain about free dice!

 

[OB1]

Um, you know a new player isn't likely to know about artificers or alternate races or alternate features. And Tasha's is all optional. So, none of those are needed anyway. S, the only time a new player needs more then 1 or 2 books is if they want t be a special snowflake.

Nothing wrong with being a special snowflake, not at all. But yes, "need" is more than a strong word, it is the wrong word.

Right, I'm saying that some previously optional features from player supplements will be integrated into a new 'standard' PHB. New players will only know what's presented to them there, so that will be standard for them, aligning those new players with the way the game has evolved over 10 years.

 

[payn]

So, I tried a lot of things, and none of it worked very well, the meaning of back loading is that you don't notice the problems until you've already been playing for a while. So its not prohibitive to get new players, it would mainly manifest from invested players getting progressively more frustratedcafter a few years, and that is something I do see in 5e community spaces, I happen to know its the backstory for most of the membership of the pf2e subreddit, since we did polls and ots the most common refrain when 5e players ask the community why they switched.

5E is old enough to be aging out as shocking as that may seem. Cycles usually start out neutral to positive (sry 4E) and build towards neutral negative. It takes time to grok a system, to experience it, and find out what you like. Systems are hugely complex, but folks tend to hyper focus on a few things. It's like a paper cut or a sliver at first its sharp, and then you deal. Though, eventually it starts to ache. Then, you get folks jumping ship and saying the whole game is garbage and well y'all know the drill. While this sentiment might have its fans, I don't think its an existential threat to 5E.