D&D 5E Is 5E Special

[UngeheuerLich]

Whereas, for me, "just pick the option that has literal spellcasting or disguised spellcasting, 4head" is not acceptable, at all. I am very glad that such options exist, because they are great for people who like that sort of thing.

But they cannot, not even in principle, satisfy the desire for "person who, by mighty thews and deft hand and skill with weapon alone, slays the terrible dragon." An extremely common, well-supported character archetype in myth and literature. Indeed, frequently the hero of the story. That D&D fails to support this archetype as an equal participant has always confused me.


I appreciate that you are trying to extend an olive branch here, but the difference between EK and RK is not relevant to me. They are both magic users. One uses spells, the other uses runes, but they are both magic users. I want to be able to play a Fighter that does not use magic but keeps up with the Wizard or Druid or Cleric that can drop 25 spells a day.

What were mundane abilities that could keep up woth 9th level spells?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No problem if you get the one in blue. But if you wanted to have all cars coloured blue just because you alone want a blue car, all the other people who don't like blue would be very unhappy.

but I can't get the perfromacne or model I want in blue...

I don't mind you haveing a green car (champion fighter) or any other options... but I can't have the car I want (and would pay for) that would line up more with the 3.5 warblade/swordsage and the 4e martial classes (FIGHTER/RANGER/ROGUE/WARLORD) but that class isn;t currently offered and the answer we are allways given is "play a caster" or "play a super watered down less effective version" (battle master)

 

[Shardstone]

I've dealt with the skill issue by changing my philosophy of skill checks. If something is painfully obvious that you will succeed, no DC on it. If something should be so hard a novice can't do it, the DC is over 20.

Ability (skill) checks are the most uninteresting thing in D&D.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

but I can't get the perfromacne or model I want in blue...

I don't mind you haveing a green car (champion fighter) or any other options... but I can't have the car I want (and would pay for) that would line up more with the 3.5 warblade/swordsage and the 4e martial classes (FIGHTER/RANGER/ROGUE/WARLORD) but that class isn;t currently offered and the answer we are allways given is "play a caster" or "play a super watered down less effective version" (battle master)

I don't give you that answer. What I mean is: if you don't like 5e core, try to find a game that suits your need better. Probably there are variants that are a better fit for your preference. I am sorry to be blunt, but from what I read I assume (correct me if I am wrong) you have a fundamental problem with the way wotc balances the game.

 

[payn]

I've dealt with the skill issue by changing my philosophy of skill checks. If something is painfully obvious that you will succeed, no DC on it. If something should be so hard a novice can't do it, the DC is over 20.

Ability (skill) checks are the most uninteresting thing in D&D.

I like effect from Traveller, or whatever it is called in gensys with conditional successes and failures. It can toss a wrench into the story and add some excitement to the same ol binary pass/fail. I'd love to see that, but it would likely get into the way of simple D&D design ethos, so probably something thats not to come.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What were mundane abilities that could keep up woth 9th level spells?

if you follow the pattern I do beleive that a 9th level spell is worth 9 or 10 d10 damage...

I mean bringing the dead back to life, teleporting to a prearranged circles, and learning secret truths are all doable with 4th and 5rh level spells...but sure 9th... even the most powerful 29th level warlord abilities in 4e were not keeping up with wish, timestop, shape change, true polymorph ect. ect... maybe meteor storm and PW kill though (maybe)

I don't need a fighter to be able to stop time... but come on we can do better then "but he has teh same skills everyone else does AND makes double the attacks"

 

[UngeheuerLich]

if you follow the pattern I do beleive that a 9th level spell is worth 9 or 10 d10 damage...

I mean bringing the dead back to life, teleporting to a prearranged circles, and learning secret truths are all doable with 4th and 5rh level spells...but sure 9th... even the most powerful 29th level warlord abilities in 4e were not keeping up with wish, timestop, shape change, true polymorph ect. ect... maybe meteor storm and PW kill though (maybe)

I don't need a fighter to be able to stop time... but come on we can do better then "but he has teh same skills everyone else does AND makes double the attacks"

No objection there. But please be more concrete. We already ruled out that just more damage would not cut it.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I don't give you that answer. What I mean is: if you don't like 5e core, try to find a game that suits your need better. Probably there are variants that are a better fit for your preference. I am sorry to be blunt, but from what I read I assume (correct me if I am wrong) you have a fundamental problem with the way wotc balances the game.

yes, and no I am not going to stop saying that.

WotC has made 3 (maybe 5 if you count 1/2 editions) editions of this game... they got 1 so wrong I feel it is unplayable, they got 1 really good and where going in the right direction but it needed work and fine tuneing... then they made 1 that went way back to that 1st one with only some small amounts of teh second... and it is playable and is fun if you make some house rules and player agrements.

what I also found is the that second edition was a reaction to the complainants about the first. the third one was in reaction to complaints (some I REALLY DISAGGREE WITH) to the 2nd... so of course I am going to complain I want this changed... it has worked before.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

yes, and no I am not going to stop saying that.

WotC has made 3 (maybe 5 if you count 1/2 editions) editions of this game... they got 1 so wrong I feel it is unplayable, they got 1 really good and where going in the right direction but it needed work and fine tuneing... then they made 1 that went way back to that 1st one with only some small amounts of teh second... and it is playable and is fun if you make some house rules and player agrements.

what I also found is the that second edition was a reaction to the complainants about the first. the third one was in reaction to complaints (some I REALLY DISAGGREE WITH) to the 2nd... so of course I am going to complain I want this changed... it has worked before.

I think it is ok to complain, and I would support more powerful martial abilities. And as I said time and time again, please salvage more from 4e.

But, be careful not to overreact and destroy what people love about 5e. It is a small grate to walk on.

Edit: 3.0 was not unplayable. 3.5 started that trend.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No objection there. But please be more concrete. We already ruled out that just more damage would not cut it.

Okay... take the 11th level 3rd attack and (17th?) 4th one away... move the second attack UP to 11th level. Take action surge and indomitable out. Now build superiority dice in from battle master at level 1 (maybe 1d4 then 2d4 at snd and 2d6 at 3rd... its' a spitball) then go through and make sets of maneuvers and gate them behind level restrictions (to avoid being spells just recoded I keep saying 5th 10th 15th and 20th but you could do 4th 9th 14th and 19th just as easy)
the groups of maneuvers should be split mostly evenly but favoring combat... so maybe 50% combat 30% explortation 20% sociol (again spit balling)
Now I would make them each have an atwill (you can just do this now) and a spend the Sup Die ability... and have some have BIGGER spend 2 Sup die abilities.

then take a handful of class features and make them optional (remember we are replacing action surge and indomitable still) with 3 choices at each of the level you would get these (I know 2nd and 9th off top of my head, but the more uses I don't remember) 2 of witch will be non supernatural and 1 that is supernatural so you can play this class either way.

The maneuvers would be pretty easy at 1st level because all the current ones work... but at higher levels look at spells.

lets say we did 'on the 5s' so there would be a new set of maneuvers with prereq level 5... you can look at 2nd level and 3rd level spells for inspiration., and at 10th level you can look to 4th and 5th level ones, at 15th level you can look at 6th and 7th and at 20th level 8th and 9th.
Now most should not be just reskined spells (but some should... there is a steel wind thing, haste, and maybe even earthquake all are potential ones... but you need to have some that are martial supernatural and some that are martial extrodanary but not magic or supernatureal...

I have 0 problem with 1 option the class has is "You strike reality and tear a hole into another realm" as a reskined planeshift... but I don't want to FORCE it as a class ability just one that they can take if they want to go that way... (superman punching through time anyone?)