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D&D 5E Is 5E Special

Sure there is. Particularly if you lose a resource you need latter in the day to do so. Using Knock to open a chest is suboptimal to letting the Rogue do his thing.
and an artificer with tinker tools has 1/2 caster of spells, and expertise in tinker tools that can open the door too... it's not like the rogue is teh only one with skills...

heck a wizard, warlock, or cleric (or god fobid druid) with the crimanl background has that too.
 

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at least tried to keep the adventuring day theme going with healing surges (god that name....). 5E sort of split the difference, but now has the odd 6-8 encounters a day so that short rest classes can manage their resources.
I always talk up 4e, so I am going to praise 5e OVER 4e for a moment.

HD is better then HS. I still wish it changed a bit (I would give 3HD at 1st level and then only 1 every odd level and have a small static bonus to HP at even levels like the 1/2/3 from above 10th in 2e) and I wish healing used it more... as much as everyone LOVES clerics just healing I think there was design space to make healing word "Target spends a HD and gets a bonus equal to your caster stat" and cure wounds be "Target heals as if he spent a HD and gets a bonus equal to your caster stat"

but over all the HD idea is one that needs to be expanded on.... it is an upgrade overall
 

heck a wizard, warlock, or cleric (or god fobid druid) with the crimanl background has that too.
Druids are particularly funny because the sheer number of situations you can resolve by turning into a mouse (which can get through a 1/5th of inch gap) and then turning back into a person is staggering, and you're also a Full caster, with a decent spell list, good AC (medium+shield+dex), even decent combat cantrips (hello Shillelagh). Sure you can use those shifts in combat, but they're just a bonus unless you're a Moon Druid.
 



payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I always talk up 4e, so I am going to praise 5e OVER 4e for a moment.

HD is better then HS. I still wish it changed a bit (I would give 3HD at 1st level and then only 1 every odd level and have a small static bonus to HP at even levels like the 1/2/3 from above 10th in 2e) and I wish healing used it more... as much as everyone LOVES clerics just healing I think there was design space to make healing word "Target spends a HD and gets a bonus equal to your caster stat" and cure wounds be "Target heals as if he spent a HD and gets a bonus equal to your caster stat"

but over all the HD idea is one that needs to be expanded on.... it is an upgrade overall
I certainly don't mind it, but I do want there to be a limit so that so focus remains on the adventuring day. This also puts a lot more thought into DMG and adventure writing. GMs knowing how to create the right amount of encounters and challenges for an adventuring day. Furthermore, if folks want to dial down to 1 encounter a day, or many encounters per day, how exactly that changes the resource dynamic and how to compensate.
 

Druids are particularly funny because the sheer number of situations you can resolve by turning into a mouse (which can get through a 1/5th of inch gap) and then turning back into a person is staggering, and you're also a Full caster, with a decent spell list, good AC (medium+shield+dex), even decent combat cantrips (hello Shillelagh). Sure you can use those shifts in combat, but they're just a bonus unless you're a Moon Druid.
yes... I don't use druid as my go to example because not only do they have good to descent damage spell but wild shape is amazing... and they get some of (if not the) best utility spells, and wildshape is just crazy... it can make you a good to great tank and it can give you utility like this
 

I certainly don't mind it, but I do want there to be a limit so that so focus remains on the adventuring day.
since me and you seem to be on different sides on so much of this talk I want to call this out... 100% agree. As much as I want the system to change and you and I see what is good/bad very different I do not want THAT changed either. (except in optional rules... I do like the idea of changing rests to longer or shorter times to fit individual campaigns)
This also puts a lot more thought into DMG and adventure writing. GMs knowing how to create the right amount of encounters and challenges for an adventuring day. Furthermore, if folks want to dial down to 1 encounter a day, or many encounters per day, how exactly that changes the resource dynamic and how to compensate.
yup
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
IME the answer to this always seems to be... give him magic but fictionally disguise it. IMO WotC solved this problem in the best way possible for their game in 5e... everyone has the option to choose magic. If you feel there is a giant discrepancy between magic wielders and non-magic wielders then good news... you can pick a subclass that uses magic for any class. If you don't (or don't care) it's a moot point and you can choose to forego it.

I think I prefer this method to the "magic as skills & abilities" method since I almost feel like that is it's own genre that isn't general D&D (though I'd have no problem with a campaign setting where it is the norm). That genre is exemplified by games like Exalted, Earthdawn, Godbound, Ninja Crusade, Legends of the Wulin and so on. Just my opinion though.
Whereas, for me, "just pick the option that has literal spellcasting or disguised spellcasting, 4head" is not acceptable, at all. I am very glad that such options exist, because they are great for people who like that sort of thing.

But they cannot, not even in principle, satisfy the desire for "person who, by mighty thews and deft hand and skill with weapon alone, slays the terrible dragon." An extremely common, well-supported character archetype in myth and literature. Indeed, frequently the hero of the story. That D&D fails to support this archetype as an equal participant has always confused me.

I do agree however that chosing a wizardy subclass is no solution. Instead look at the rune knight to have a supernatural fighter that does not use spells and is very powerful.
I appreciate that you are trying to extend an olive branch here, but the difference between EK and RK is not relevant to me. They are both magic users. One uses spells, the other uses runes, but they are both magic users. I want to be able to play a Fighter that does not use magic but keeps up with the Wizard or Druid or Cleric that can drop 25 spells a day.

For a seemingly mundane fighter there is no great option I fear. All attampts beside battlwmaster just look inferior to battlemaster...
And Battlemaster itself falls short on multiple fronts. (As Ruin Explorer noted, spellcasting can keep up with the damage of Fighters while also having spells left over to do other things that are simply impossible for the Fighter.)

The Spell slots have a specific mathematical value, in HP terms.
Show me the numbers. Unless and until we can actually critique the numbers, my only response on this is, "Objection: Hearsay," to quote the recent meme.

Because frankly the few references you've made sound like they ludicrously under-value the benefit of spells. E.g. I believe you said hold person was valued at 3d10, which would be hilarious if it weren't so infuriating: a successful hold person is worth the number of attacks the target cannot make because of the spell, plus the number the PCs can land against the target (because it doesn't get extra saving throws for being attacked), which have advantage if made in melee.

Let's say the target has a 40% chance to make the save (meaning, the spell has a 60% chance to work, comparable to hitting with an attack.) Mathematically, that works out to an expected value of (somewhat surprisingly) exactly 1.5 average enemy turns under the effect. So, you negate on average 1.5× the creature's average damage, and get 1.5× the average damage (accounting for hit rate) of the party, with melee characters factoring in advantage. And that's supposed to be 3d10. Even at level 3, when hold person first comes online, that is obviously an extremely low-ball estimate of the spell's effects. Which would certainly be par for the course of 5e design.
 

how about if there is a car company that only makes blue cars in 1 model... you can have any model in green or red or yellow, but only that 1 in blue... so you ask if one of the other models, one you like the performenc on more, could come in blue and you get people that just keep telling you "Just take a green one and pretend it's blue"

No problem if you get the one in blue. But if you wanted to have all cars coloured blue just because you alone want a blue car, all the other people who don't like blue would be very unhappy.
 
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