D&D 5E Is 5E Special

[Parmandur]

Making a book a pleasure to read has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether it uses "natural language" in its actual rules-text or not.

Natural language is pleasurable to read, full stop. Hard to read books amake prepping hard, even if they technically contain good information. My experience with 4E was that it made just reading the books a chore, so it made playing the game unpleasant work. Hence I stopped playing, because nobody was paying me to work at it.

 

[Oofta]

You base your conclusion on a false premise.

The correct premise would be:
there can't be a perfect game for everyone.

So the conclusion you draw from the existence of LevelUp is flawed.

You admit, that 5e did what it was designed for: attracting new and old players. It was designed that way and works well enough for that.
LevelUp gives an alternative for people who want a bit more detailed game. That does in no way devalue the base game, but rather complements it.

I agree. The fact that we can have level up is an indication of how well the core design works. No game can be everything for everyone. WOTC isn't going to write something like level up for a variety of reasons, but the fact that it works seamlessly as an add on speaks well of the system.

P.S. I have no clue why people have issues with the monk. I have one in my home game, I'm playing one now. They're a lot of fun, I don't find them difficult to grok at all. Ditto champion fighter.

 

[Parmandur]

Monk can be viable.
You need system mastery or the class kinda sucks at everything.

Natural language is not a valid replacement for instructions and advice in a guidebook, manual, or handbook.

No, they really don't. Nothing in 5E requires system mastery.

 

[payn]

Becauae the rules are exception based, individual rule units like a Race or Class are modules that can be removed and replaced easily. Making a new Ranger doesn't make.a new game.

Thats not what modular is. You are talking about character options. Modular would include things like tactical combat system, social combat system, exploration system, etc.. None of that ever materialized. To be fair, 5E was a hit so they never had to go back and do it. Though, it left plenty of folks disappointed they couldn't do their 2E,3E,4E player all at the same table (what a pipe dream).

 

[Oofta]

Where exactly is the modularity in 5E? I'm with you on many of your postings in this thread, but this one is not obvious, in fact it seems quite the opposite.

There are a lot of optional rules now from books like Tasha's. Beyond that you have things like level up, publications from Colville, Esper Genesis along with hundreds of options in the Dmsguild.

A lot of the modularity has been off-loaded. Then again the "modularity" statement was only mentioned in an interview with a guy who only worked on the project for 6 months early on.

 

[Parmandur]

Thats not what modular is. You are talking about character options. Modular would include things like tactical combat system, social combat system, exploration system, etc.. None of that ever materialized. To be fair, 5E was a hit so they never had to go back and do it. Though, it left plenty of folks disappointed they couldn't do their 2E,3E,4E player all at the same table (what a pipe dream).

They did include a bunch h of modules and books throughout the Edition have put.more in, particularly Adventures.

They didn't go full-on with modules to support every Edition's playstyle ever...and that has to do with their surveys, it seems to me.

 

[Eric V]

And if you lose instruction, guidance, and advice, you lose many players and DMs.

Youtube, Twitter, Reddit, Twitch D&DB, and forums like ENworld covered 5e's butt on guidance, instruction, and advice.

All the ease for players and plain language means jack if your DM can't run you a game.
All the ruling freedom means nothing if straying one step of a standard, hack&slash, beer&pretzels game leaves you in the wilderness.

That's why almost all the positive statements about 5e are player side or by multi-edition veteran DMs.

I think this is a key point...a lot of what makes the game work comes from the community (in the face of ambiguous rules or absence of them), and not from the rules-set that people purchase.

 

[Minigiant]

I think you are severely misjudging the ability of young people to play the game.
And although I admit, that the DMG could be a little better, more heavy rules and key terms had not helped.
I think in Germany there are not so many streams and I have seen 7th to 9th graders run their own home games. Something I did not see in the 3.x or 4e era.
I will ask them, how they managed as soon as school starts again after the vacations.

Still my point stands, while al tge outer factors surely helped, 4e would have never gained the audience 5e does, because it was not accessible (especially when you consider how clunky some technical terms translate into German).

I did see young people play D&D on their own. I came home on day with my 6, 7, and 8 year old cousins sprawled on my living room floor with my 4e core books screaming "Twin Strike!" The 6 your DMing by reading the many 4e charts for everything.

Because everyone learns differently. My baby cousins understand colors and charts and got Green powers, Red Powers, and Black Powers, that Brute are melee with low AC and high HP, and the DC for level 1 were.

But the part that I was stressing is that 4e Essentials is not the same as 4e Original and Natural Language is not a substitute for clear information.

Allof the 5e accessibility was excellent. However the "You can change up things at your table" and "You DMcan alter things" ideas were serverely hampered because theguts of the systemwere not clearly explained. It was a community effort of breaking down 5e and getting it to shift to different styles of play like sword andsorcery,epic fantasy, hardcore tactics, silly roleplay, etc. The community covered 5e's butt when people grew experience and wanted to tailor the game to their preferences.

 

[Parmandur]

I did see young people play D&D on their own. I came home on day with my 6, 7, and 8 year old cousins sprawled on my living room floor with my 4e core books screaming "Twin Strike!" The 6 your DMing by reading the many 4e charts for everything.

Because everyone learns differently. My baby cousins understand colors and charts and got Green powers, Red Powers, and Black Powers, that Brute are melee with low AC and high HP, and the DC for level 1 were.

But the part that I was stressing is that 4e Essentials is not the same as 4e Original and Natural Language is not a substitute for clear information.

Allof the 5e accessibility was excellent. However the "You can change up things at your table" and "You DMcan alter things" ideas were serverely hampered because theguts of the systemwere not clearly explained. It was a community effort of breaking down 5e and getting it to shift to different styles of play like sword andsorcery,epic fantasy, hardcore tactics, silly roleplay, etc. The community covered 5e's butt when people grew experience and wanted to tailor the game to their preferences.

5E has natural language conveying clear information. Best of both worlds.

And my experience is that 5-7 year olds love reading 5E books, and playing it, too. Kids van adapt easily, frankly.

 

[Minigiant]

5E has natural language conveying clear information. Best of both worlds.

Most of the information written in natural language was clear.

But if you look at the "What is wrong with 5e" thread, a common opinion is 5e has a lot of missing info and a lot of mechanically useless info.