D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Undrave]

Doesn't that just make it slower/harder to acquire spells automatically, but ultimately not really limit versatility if the Wizard finds books to copy from?

Well it means that your specialist will be a proper specialist and after the free spells the DM can control what spell you find.

Certainly some of the bonuses could be relegated to subclasses, rather than being baked into the base class as options to choose from. I'm just a fan of "pick from this list at these levels" approach to customization.

I think the Wizard picking any two spells per level is a bit excessive.

It's not designed to mitigate the 5MWD at all. It's designed to spread out the 6-8 encounters per day over a reasonable period of time.

I fail to see the difference. It's existence still recognizes that 6-8 encounter per day is ridiculous.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Correct. The role for a rogue is exploration expert/scout. The class amplifies the role through it's abilities such that the wizard cannot match it. The same with the paladin and combat. And so on.

No it can't, because the wizard has very few class abilities in comparison, and those abilities generally aren't helpful in the various roles. Exceptions exist, like the Scribe's book, but by and large it's just spells, more spells, combat options and how do I modify a spell.

Spells cannot equal or exceed a class that is specialized in a role plus class abilities to enhance that role.

Knock will very rarely be better unless the wizard has some outside help from a party member, magic item or multiclass to allow it to not bring every monster in the area down on the party.

My argument is not that there aren't cases, and often corner cases, where the wizard's spells can be better, but that generally they are not.

No. Those sometimes things you mentioned do not do what the rogue does just as well, because you didn't take into account the other rogue abilities that enhance what the rogue does.

The rogue can unlock doors all day long. The wizard cannot and is going to wreck the party if he even tries because knock generally sucks now. Because of retries the rogue also gets retries on each door, so unlocking is almost as automatic as knock, but much better because no loud noise. Knock sets of traps. Traps that the rogue can find and disarm, and if that fails, will be mitigated through class abilities to do little or no damage. The wizard gets wrecked.

At mid levels the rogue gets reliable talent, which is huge with the large bonuses provided by expertise and bounded accuracies generally low DCs.

Mostly worse, which is why it isn't as good or better.

Yep. Mostly worse there as well.

Rogue is a high floor, low ceiling sustain class even in the exploration/scout role (and some of their best tools are poachable with minimal investment).

And like most martials, their usefulness at all levels drops like a stone anytime their objectives are "up there" or "behind that wall" or, frequently "beyond that magic thingy"

 

[Fanaelialae]

That sounds suspiciously like, "Suck it up and just let it be easy." which is not an option for a lot of us. The focus shouldn't be mitigating DM screw-ups by allowing less than 6-8 encounters per day by altering spellcasters. The focus should be figure out a way to have 6-8 encounters in-between long rests.

Does it? Because that's not what I said.

Rather than conflating the two as a singular issue, you can address the issues of overall adventure challenge and class power disparity separately. In fact, you're likely to find that the solution fits a lot better if you don't try to make it 'one size fits all'.

 

[Maxperson]

Well it means that your specialist will be a proper specialist and after the free spells the DM can control what spell you find.

I think the Wizard picking any two spells per level is a bit excessive.

I fail to see the difference. It's existence still recognizes that 6-8 encounter per day is ridiculous.

It's ridiculous in that you just don't find it in a 24 hour period. It's the required balance, though, so either you do that or you spread it out. The other choice is to make the game even easier than it already is, which wouldn't even be worth playing at that point. Might as well just tell people to roll up 20th level PCs, let them know they won, and do something else.

 

[Gammadoodler]

That sounds suspiciously like, "Suck it up and just let it be easy." which is not an option for a lot of us. The focus shouldn't be mitigating DM screw-ups by allowing less than 6-8 encounters per day by altering spellcasters. The focus should be figure out a way to have 6-8 encounters in-between long rests.

It might also sound like:

"The classes are balanced only if the wide variety of tables always adhere to a singular storytelling structure that requires the party to have enough encounters such that some encounters will occur where high power options are no longer available"

Vs.

"The classes are balanced"

 

[Maxperson]

Rogue is a high floor, low ceiling sustain class even in the exploration/scout role (and some of their best tools are poachable with minimal investment).

And like most martials, their usefulness at all levels drops like a stone anytime their objectives are "up there" or "behind that wall" or, frequently "beyond that magic thingy"

Rogues can climb well, so "up there" really isn't an issue. Behind the wall means find the secret door which rogues are really good at or find the way around to that place, which rogues are really good at. Beyond that magic thingy is so vague I can't even respond to it.

 

[Maxperson]

It's might also sound like:

"The classes are balanced only if the wide variety of tables agree to a singular storytelling structure that requires the party to have enough encounters some encounters will occur where high power options are no longer available"

Vs.

"The classes are balanced"

Sure, it's bad design, but it's the design 5e is stuck with. So you do it or you(the DM) screw up the balance.

 

[Maxperson]

Does it? Because that's not what I said.

Rather than conflating the two as a singular issue, you can address the issues of overall adventure challenge and class power disparity separately. In fact, you're likely to find that the solution fits a lot better if you don't try to make it 'one size fits all'.

The class disparity is virtually non-existent(and really only exists with fighters in exploration/social) if you follow the 6-8 guideline. Wizards cannot do well in that many encounters and still do well at multiple other things. They can do well in combat and well in another role, not well enough to beat the specialists, but wizards are the versatile class. Or they can do mediocre in 3-4 areas. Or they can do poorly at a bunch.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Sure, it's bad design, but it's the design 5e is stuck with. So you do it or you(the DM) screw up the balance.

So we agree its bad design.

Bad designs should be fixed.

If my engine is falling out of my car, we shouldn't be discussing how to purchase and apply the right amount of duct tape.

 

[Undrave]

It's ridiculous in that you just don't find it in a 24 hour period. It's the required balance, though, so either you do that or you spread it out. The other choice is to make the game even easier than it already is, which wouldn't even be worth playing at that point. Might as well just tell people to roll up 20th level PCs, let them know they won, and do something else.

The game should be balanced around 2-4 encounters a day. That'd be easier.

and both types of rests should benefit all classes. Not necessarily in the same amount, mind you, but every class should have at least 1 Short Rest recharge and 1 Long Rest recharge.

I think Healing Surges were a great clock in 4e, limiting how much magical healing can pull you along, and making an handy resource to pick at through non-combat encounter (i.e. traps would usually inflict damage of 1 or more Healing Surge instead of actual damage, since it would skip the part where you would take time to restore your HP and just make you count the resource drain directly) that any class would hate to lose.

Hit die could work the same way, but because they don’t feed anything else, losing one or two due to environmental condition (like making your way through a searing hot desert) just doesn’t feel as big of a deal.