D&D (2024) Bard Playtest discussion

[Ruin Explorer]

Making a thread to discuss the changes to Bards specifically, hopefully others can make them for other classes. Will edit in the changes I note as I go through:

1) Changed from Simple + trad Bard weapons to just Simple weapons. Odd change because an awful lot of Bards use Rapiers, but a simplification.

2) Bardic Inspiration changed to a Reaction on someone failing a roll or taking damage, which potentially makes it a lot more flexible and makes Bards very good at getting people up who just got downed. PB/long rest uses at L1, PB/short rest (so they do still exist!) from L7. Also at L7, if the roll a 1 it doesn't use up the Inspiration, nice!

3) Spell Preparation. If I'm reading correctly this now works more like they're a Cleric/Druid? I.e. they choose what spells to prep from a list, and can change on a long rest, including cantrips. That's pretty big.

EDIT - It's a subset of the Arcane list, I see - Only Divination, Enchantment, Illusion or Transmutation. However this overall still feels like a buff.

4) Expertise in 2 skills at L2, 2 more at L9 nice.

5) Songs of Restoration - Always have healing spells prepared so no excuse to not have them/cast them! Kind of seems like a 4E role vibe there, but certainly technically a buff.

6) Magical secrets - Now it's pick a spell LIST and you can memorize 2 spells from that. At 14th pick a different list and get the same. Simple, flexible and useful.

7) Capstone is now 2 uses (up from 1) on rolling initiative and L18 like all capstones.

College of Lore (only subclass for now):

8) Still not available until L3 despite WotC saying this wasn't something they liked, interesting.

9) Gives Arcana, History and Nature instead of letting you choose ensuring you can't be awful at knowing things lol.

10) Cutting Words is explicitly rolled after a SUCCESS, so that's great. Also does psychic damage from L10!

11) Inspiration dice are rolled with Advantage from L6 lol nice.

12) Peerless Skill changed to be "after you fail" instead of the ludicrous "before the DM says if you succeed or fail" approach.

Overall my impression?

I don't have any complaints. This is a straight upgrade that addresses virtually all the major issues with Bard gameplay. Yes, it is slightly more restrictive, in that it's forcing you to be competent at your role, but I had no problem with that in 4E and have no problem with it here.

 

[rooneg]

My only real question is how giving classes like the bard full spell selection flexibility is going to affect the overall power level of casters in the game. Like, the ability to swap out your spells all the time is the Wizard's thing, you know? So now the Bard gets to just pick from huge swaths of the Arcane spell list with no Spellbook restriction? I mean, I like it from the Bard's POV, but I'm not sure I'm in love with the overall impact (although it's not like Wizards are underpowered or anything, so maybe I just shouldn't care?).

 

[Amrûnril]

The Arcane/Divine/Primal spell system and the associated changes to magical secrets seem like the biggest changes (with the arguable exception of spell preparation). Frankly, I don't see the advantage of this system over giving classes unique spell lists. The change to magical secrets is great for players who want more flexibility with spell choice, but it takes away from the "signature spell" dynamic the previous version had. And the loss of additional magical secrets takes away what I thought was the main appeal of the Lore Bard.

 

[Vael]

Also, Prepared Spells = Spell slots. Interesting.

Overall, a lot I like. The change to Bardic Inspiration to a reaction is a net positive, I think.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I mean, I like it from the Bard's POV, but I'm not sure I'm in love with the overall impact (although it's not like Wizards are underpowered or anything, so maybe I just shouldn't care?).

Given WotC, they'll likely use this as an excuse to buff Wizards.

Frankly, I don't see the advantage of this system over giving classes unique spell lists.

It's likely to be a lot easier to balance and theme, especially if they add more classes in future.

The change to magical secrets is great for players who want more flexibility with spell choice, but it takes away from the "signature spell" dynamic the previous version had. And the loss of additional magical secrets takes away what I thought was the main appeal of the Lore Bard.

Frankly Lore Bards (and I say this having played more than one) were OP. And it was Magical Secrets that pushed them over the top in terms of appeal and wildly outcompeting other subclasses. I don't view the changes as a real nerf, because Magical Secrets is hugely better now. The only issue is by delaying the first one to 11th means most players will never see the feature.

Really hoping WotC has improved more stuff in the 11-20 range to make that more worth playing in and less of a headache for the DM, as a lot of classes now have cool features in that range.

 

[Neonchameleon]

My problem isn't with the loss of unique spell lists for the classes, it's with the loss of unique spell lists for the characters. Every bard gets to pick their base spells from the same list. Which means they are much more interchangeable as characters and with a whole lot less character customisation. Yes the ranger and the sorcerer were too crippled in spells known by the PHB - but this is less flavourful characters.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My problem isn't with the loss of unique spell lists for the classes, it's with the loss of unique spell lists for the characters. Every bard gets to pick their base spells from the same list. Which means they are much more interchangeable as characters and with a whole lot less character customisation. Yes the ranger and the sorcerer were too crippled in spells known by the PHB - but this is less flavourful characters.

In a purely mechanical and non-roleplaying sense, sure.

But that's a double-edged sword.

What you see as "flavourful" is also how a lot of newer players or players who simply have poor system expertise get themselves into bad traps. If you let a newbie just select spells as they feel, the large number of poorly-balanced spells in 5E (and likely 1D&D) means they can very easily dig themselves into a hole where they're not very effective.

Without Tasha's, they're basically stuck there forever, or near enough.

With Tasha's they can very slowly get out of it, but what they can't do is experiment. They can't try stuff out. They can't try that spell that sounded cool. They can't adapt for specific situations, which means they basically can't have "niche" spells on their list, so the actual spells used by 98% of Bards tend to be a TINY subset of the actual Bard list, like, less than 30% of it.

Now I'm not saying you're wrong, to be clear. I get what you're getting at, and WotC sees it as a bug not a feature, because making D&D more gamist and characters slightly more generic mechanically is likely to help with their longer-term plans and certainly benefits accessibility (which is clearly a key goal here, c.f. the lists of suggested spells etc.).

 

[Neonchameleon]

In a purely mechanical and non-roleplaying sense, sure.

But that's a double-edged sword.

What you see as "flavourful" is also how a lot of newer players or players who simply have poor system expertise get themselves into bad traps. If you let a newbie just select spells as they feel, the large number of poorly-balanced spells in 5E (and likely 1D&D) means they can very easily dig themselves into a hole where they're not very effective.

I understand the argument - but it's IMO a fallacy of the excluded middle when WotC has been showing us for years how to hit that middle, and they've even done it in this play packet. The Bard gets "Songs of Restoration" which gives them a solid list of spells that will always be effective, while the Xanathar's Rangers and Tasha's Sorcerer subclasses (plus an always known Hunter's Mark) give you a starting spell list that should have enough of a foundation that this isn't a major issue.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Bardic Inspiration as a reaction is a great idea. It will speed up combat, too, because it removes the time on your turn to assess who could use Bardic Inspiration most in the coming round - now you immediately know. Also, being able to heal with it is a great utility for rescuing downed PCs.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I understand the argument - but it's IMO a fallacy of the excluded middle when WotC has been showing us for years how to hit that middle, and they've even done it in this play packet. The Bard gets "Songs of Restoration" which gives them a solid list of spells that will always be effective, while the Xanathar's Rangers and Tasha's Sorcerer subclasses (plus an always known Hunter's Mark) give you a starting spell list that should have enough of a foundation that this isn't a major issue.

That doesn't make any sense to me. How is it an "excluded middle" fallacy? Can you explain? I can't find any definition of that which makes any sense in the context of what you're saying. Is there perhaps a different phrase which might make more sense?

Also I strongly disagree with the argument - Songs of Restoration does not do that - rather if those are the only good spells they have, it locks them into a "reactive healer" role, which is pretty bad. None of those spells are interesting, cool, or fun to use. They're purely the most boring and reactive kind of "party support" spells. I mean some, like Lesser Restoration, are basically a "spell tax", i.e. where one PC is forced to give up spells simply to remove penalties from another PC, and it's not cool or dramatic, it's just required.

They absolutely COULD design a baseline list of spells every Bard has that DOES make them all viable, then let you build from there. It's a classic bit of design in fact to do that. But they haven't.