Dragonlance Dragonlance Creators Reveal Why There Are No Orcs On Krynn

Talking to the Dragonlance Nexus, Dragonlance creators Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman revealed why the world of Krynn features no orcs -- in short, because they didn't want to copy Tolkien, and orcs were very much a 'Middle Earth' thing.

Weis told Trampas Whiteman that "Orcs were also viewed as very Middle Earth. We wanted something different." Hickman added that it was draconians which made Krynn stand out. Read more at the link below!

Why are there no Orcs in Krynn? Weis and Hickman give us the answer! - Dragonlance Nexus

Dragonhelm gets the scoop from Weis and Hickman on why there are no orcs in Krynn. Read More

dragonlancenexus.com

 

[Cadence]

That's what I don't get.

What in the seven interlocking hells is so fun about making sure other people don't get to play the character they want.

Especially from the position of someone who has infinite characters of their own they can play.

Hi, I really like the 616, can I run a supers game based on that? Sure, can I be in the Green Lantern Corp? How about something like Dr. Spectrum? Nope, GL Corps.

Hi, I really like Star Trek, can I run a sci-fi game based on that? Sure, can I be a Jedi? How about telekenetic implants? Nope, force based Jedi.

Hi, I just saw Oceans 11, can I run a heist game based on that? Sure, can I be flying a fighter jet in a combat zone? How about an ex-pilot and I work in a helicopter? Nope fighter jet in a warzone.

Hi, I just Lord of the Rings, can I run a fantasy game based on that? Sure, can I be a Thri-Kreen? Uhm... no?

Hi, I really want Pizza, can we go to a pizza place? Sure, oooh, I'll order burritos. Uhm... probably not?

A DM who can't compromise a bit most of the time doesn't sound like someone I want to play with. A player who always needs their particular way sounds similarly odious.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Or you can get the elf's player to help out. "You want to play an elf? OK, here's the map, these are the areas that currently have space for a new species. Pick on. OK, now tell me about these elves. Since it's my world, I have veto power if anything is particularly egregious, but go ahead."

If the player then says "nah, that's too much work," then sure, say no elves. "I don't have the time to figure out their culture or how they'd work in my game." But if the player has a cool idea, you can work together to improve the world. In my current homebrew setting, I started out with a short paragraph on each race (the world was intended to help introduce a new guy into the game). Another player, who joined later, went hog-wild and took my few sentences on tieflings and turned them into a pretty cool culture.

I did exactly that in my homebrew campaign with a player who wanted to play a lizard man.

 

[Maxperson]

Isn't the player doing that when they insist on playing a character from a race the DM says is excluded? If you don't play it the player's way, you aren't doing it right.

If I invite the player to play Dark Sun, showing up with a cleric to a god is that player acting in bad faith. He agreed to Dark Sun and all the restrictions that came with it. Same goes for Dragonlance. If I invite someone to play, that person is agreeing to any restrictions Dragonlance has, like no healing or divine access until the gods return. Trying to get around that by playing a bard and taking cures is acting in bad faith.

As for orcs or half-orcs, I personally don't have an issue with an individual from another plane or world as a PC. Insisting that the orc be from Krynn, though, would be acting in bad faith.

Players are not entitled to every option just because they want to play it. DMs are not in the wrong for denying bad faith requests.

 

[phuong]

If you wrote a setting for D&D world and said "no orcs," I'd expect there to be a reason for it other than "I don't want to be like Tolkien," and I'd expect that setting to lack most or all of the other Tolkienesque trappings as well.

I would take the opposite stance, I don't expect orcs in any setting, nor do I expect goblins, or dragons or anything. The entire point of creating a new setting, is that it is new and different from other settings. Saying that you have justify every creature missing that Tolkein used in his middle earth setting, or every creature that is in the Forgotten Realms, is a really strange take. I don't recall anyone crying because there were no orcs running around Ravenloft.

 

[Azzy]

Dudes, really? This is a matter of play how you want. Want to play DL classic-style with no orcs? Play it that way. What to play DL with orcs (and/or modify the setting in other ways)? Go for it. Each are equally valid approaches to D&D. This back and forth is pretty much going nowhere, nobody is convincing the other, so just play how you want. It's a game. It's only a game of playing pretend—it's not serious business.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Dudes, really? This is a matter of play how you want. Want to play DL classic-style with no orcs? Play it that way. What to play DL with orcs (and/or modify the setting in other ways)? Go for it. Each are equally valid approaches to D&D. This back and forth is pretty much going nowhere, nobody is convincing the other, so just play how you want. It's a game. It's only a game of playing pretend—it's not serious business.

From what I can tell, that's not the issue. The issue seems to be: If you're a DM and don't have X in your game and a player want to play X, should they be allowed. Some say no, some say yes. As far as I can tell anyway. Which seems a bit odd to me, as both arguments seem to be telling someone to do something they don't want to.

For my own $.02, I think there's an implied agreement when you play in someone's game. Talking beforehand of expectations is important. At that point, if you want to play X and the DM doesn't allow it after talking about it (reason doesn't matter, cuz it's their game and we all have our own reasons), then either play something else or play somewhere else or DM a game yourself. We have choices, and IMO, whenever possible, no one should be forced to do something they don't want to. Either come to an agreement, or move on. That's true of DMs and players.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Hi, I really like the 616, can I run a supers game based on that? Sure, can I be in the Green Lantern Corp? How about something like Dr. Spectrum? Nope, GL Corps.

Hi, I really like Star Trek, can I run a sci-fi game based on that? Sure, can I be a Jedi? How about telekenetic implants? Nope, force based Jedi.

Hi, I just saw Oceans 11, can I run a heist game based on that? Sure, can I be flying a fighter jet in a combat zone? How about an ex-pilot and I work in a helicopter? Nope fighter jet in a warzone.

Hi, I just Lord of the Rings, can I run a fantasy game based on that? Sure, can I be a Thri-Kreen? Uhm... no?

Hi, I really want Pizza, can we go to a pizza place? Sure, oooh, I'll order burritos. Uhm... probably not?

A DM who can't compromise a bit most of the time doesn't sound like someone I want to play with. A player who always needs their particular way sounds similarly odious.

Why do all these bad comparisons always leap immediately into sci-fi?

They're not asking for an entire organization, or to not engage the concept. They just want to play someone who is funny looking and might have some different minor mechanics.

Nothing is actually being imposed on the DM to just... not flip out over one character not looking 'right' to them.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Why do all these bad comparisons always leap immediately into sci-fi?

They're not asking for an entire organization, or to not engage the concept. They just want to play someone who is funny looking and might have some different minor mechanics.

Nothing is actually being imposed on the DM to just... not flip out over one character not looking 'right' to them.

I can't speak for anyone else, but as a DM who DM's a living world, the implications of having a unique type of PC is pretty impactful to the game. How would every NPC react? That has to be played out, and can (and does) often have a big impact to actual gameplay for most role-playing scenarios. If a game doesn't have X, then they simply don't exist in that world. Who cares about the specific reason, it's the DM's game and that's all that matters in the end. What you seem to be arguing for is for DM's to change their world and their preferences based on player desires.

And I'd posit that illustrates beautifully why there is a shortage of DMs...

It seems to me similar to going to a friend's house for an 80s themed party and you insist on changing the music to dubstep. If you're going to an 80s theme party, that's the expectation. You shouldn't be able to tell the host to change it because you want dubstep even though it's physically possible to do so.

 

[Faolyn]

I would take the opposite stance, I don't expect orcs in any setting, nor do I expect goblins, or dragons or anything. The entire point of creating a new setting, is that it is new and different from other settings. Saying that you have justify every creature missing that Tolkein used in his middle earth setting, or every creature that is in the Forgotten Realms, is a really strange take. I don't recall anyone crying because there were no orcs running around Ravenloft.

Ravenloft, much like Dark Sun, is by nature very, very different than the typical D&D setting. Plus there's always the option of having orcs brought in by the Mists (one example of how to run Ravenloft encounters from, I think, the first MC Appendix involved an ogre), and Ravenloft was originally set up as a "weekend in Hell" and can still be run that way, thus allowing orc PCs, and I've seen at least one homebrew domain that featured lots of orcs, and 3x Ravenloft had caliban which specifically used orc stats.

So there's plenty of ways already in the game to allow for orc PCs. Whereas with Dragonlance, you also have to bring in something like Spelljammer or Planescape (or at least planar travel) to allow for an orc, and both of those things then bring in other issues for the setting (how would a dragon fair against a spelljamming ship?).

If, however, you're planning on making a world that's basically the same as every other standard D&D world but mysteriously no orcs... a lot of people are going to want to know why. You can come up with explanations for it, even very good ones--but "because I don't want it to be just like Tolkien" is not a very good explanation, especially if you also use dwarfs, elves, and something very much like hobbits.

If Dragonlance races had been, I dunno, humans, rogue draconians or traag, minotaurs, irda, shadowpeople, and kender, then I doubt anybody would care one whit about orcs, because none of the PHB nonhuman races are included.

 

[Sacrosanct]

For the record, "I don't like X" is a perfectly good reason regardless of anything else. We don't have to justify our preferences to meet someone else's standards.