Dragonlance Dragonlance Creators Reveal Why There Are No Orcs On Krynn

Talking to the Dragonlance Nexus, Dragonlance creators Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman revealed why the world of Krynn features no orcs -- in short, because they didn't want to copy Tolkien, and orcs were very much a 'Middle Earth' thing.

Weis told Trampas Whiteman that "Orcs were also viewed as very Middle Earth. We wanted something different." Hickman added that it was draconians which made Krynn stand out. Read more at the link below!

Why are there no Orcs in Krynn? Weis and Hickman give us the answer! - Dragonlance Nexus

Dragonhelm gets the scoop from Weis and Hickman on why there are no orcs in Krynn. Read More

dragonlancenexus.com

 

[Maxperson]

But... neither Middle Earth nor your novel was written specifically for a game system that has a school of wizardry and robots in it.

Only the general system has robots(Warforged) in it. Specific settings do not inherently have any given thing in the system. Setting XYZ doesn't inherently have humans, elves or dwarves. The author of that setting has to put those races in.

Schools of wizardry are not a part of the system. As DM I have to go out of my way to include them, not go out of my way to exclude them.

Since Dragonlance was and is written for D&D, a game system that has orcs in it, "because I said so" isn't really a good enough answer for not having them.

Yes it actually is a good enough answer. Nobody has a right to expect that any given monster, race or class is going to be in any given setting. What is in the game system =/= what is in a setting. What is in the game system = some of what is possible for a setting. That's why the PHB direct players(before you even get to character creation) to talk to the DM and find out what house rules there are.

The DM is not obligated to put orcs into a setting, and the player has no right to expect orcs will be available. Ideally the two will discuss it, but the DM doesn't have to give a reason for why orcs aren't allowed.

See, with Dark Sun, you can get away with saying "no orcs" because the world is so very different than the standard D&D setting. Everything is different. Different races, different monsters, magic works differently and is secondary to psionics, clerics are themed around elements instead of gods... even chargen for Dark Sun was different back in 2e.

If you wrote a setting for D&D world and said "no orcs," I'd expect there to be a reason for it other than "I don't want to be like Tolkien,"

They gave another reason for it.

and I'd expect that setting to lack most or all of the other Tolkienesque trappings as well.

That's an unreasonable expectation. No orcs is not a good reason to expect no elves, no dwarves or no halflings.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I can't speak for anyone else, but as a DM who DM's a living world, the implications of having a unique type of PC is pretty impactful to the game.

I DM a living world too and... I just don't use that as an excuse?

How would every NPC react? That has to be played out, and can (and does) often have a big impact to actual gameplay for most role-playing scenarios.

Again, I just don't use that as an excuse. They treat them like people and I don't make a big stink about it.

Unlike the ISO standard I've seen with this excuse: "I begrudgingly accepted your weird race, so now you have to face racism as punishment". Which turned out real fun for one guy who forgot teiflings are a species who developed the ability to set people who hurt them on fire.

it's the DM's game

And herein lies the problem. The DM is the person who volunteered to entertain the group in a collaborative game. They shouldn't be so possessive over the group's game, or act like the fact that the thing they volunteered to do is so much work that it entitles them to be the Most Important Person; the Alphas Friend or something.

 

[Simpletense]

It seems to me similar to going to a friend's house for an 80s themed party and you insist on changing the music to dubstep. If you're going to an 80s theme party, that's the expectation. You shouldn't be able to tell the host to change it because you want dubstep even though it's physically possible to do so.

Except, to extend the analogy, it's not a single party, but a commitment to the same restricted playlist at every single party with these friends for the next few weeks, months, or potentially years.

All of which might be fine if you are fortunate enough to have other dubstep-amenable friends throwing parties that you can attend instead but if not I'd hope that there'd be the flexibility to add a song or two to the playlist, especially if these are friends who have enjoyed partying together in the past.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I DM a living world too and... I just don't use that as an excuse?

Again, I just don't use that as an excuse. They treat them like people and I don't make a big stink about it.

Well, good for you I guess, but it's a real issue for many others, and it's a legitimate reason.

And herein lies the problem. The DM is the person who volunteered to entertain the group in a collaborative game. They shouldn't be so possessive over the group's game, or act like the fact that the thing they volunteered to do is so much work that it entitles them to be the Most Important Person; the Alphas Friend or something.

I will repeat:

And I'd posit that illustrates beautifully why there is a shortage of DMs...

 

[Cadence]

Why do all these bad comparisons always leap immediately into sci-fi?

They're not asking for an entire organization, or to not engage the concept. They just want to play someone who is funny looking and might have some different minor mechanics.

Nothing is actually being imposed on the DM to just... not flip out over one character not looking 'right' to them.

Are Marvel Comics, Ocean's 11, and LotR considered sci-fi too?

In three of the four examples I typed I had the DM come back with something to address the mechanics (the looks didn't come up in the first three examples, but many other people have addressed that in the DL example using things like half-ogre).
If the request is to look a bit different and have some slightly different mechanics but not need an organization... doesn't my hypothetical DM in all three offer that? (The hypothetical player certainly could have accepted any of the three).

If the request is to look a bit different with some minor mechanical adjustments in DL, then lots of suggestions have been made (such as saying they're a half-ogre) and I don't recall anyone shooting down looking a bit different and having a bit different mechanics. Neither of those seem to require much world building or work.

Or are you asking to be particularly an Orc (an entirely different species that came from somewhere and a people... a people kind of being like an organization)?.

In any case, I certainly agree it would be nice if folks stopped flipping out.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And I'd posit that illustrates beautifully why there is a shortage of DMs...

Because the game takes too little time teaching people how to DM and too much time telling them that just by volunteering, they are always right and special and don't have to care about the desires of their friends/audience and calling that 'DM empowerment to cement that feeling and terrible culture?

 

[Demetrios1453]

If I invite the player to play Dark Sun, showing up with a cleric to a god is that player acting in bad faith. He agreed to Dark Sun and all the restrictions that came with it. Same goes for Dragonlance. If I invite someone to play, that person is agreeing to any restrictions Dragonlance has, like no healing or divine access until the gods return. Trying to get around that by playing a bard and taking cures is acting in bad faith.

As for orcs or half-orcs, I personally don't have an issue with an individual from another plane or world as a PC. Insisting that the orc be from Krynn, though, would be acting in bad faith.

Players are not entitled to every option just because they want to play it. DMs are not in the wrong for denying bad faith requests.

Yes, exactly. That is what I was saying when I used the words of the post I was quoting.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Are Marvel Comics, Ocean's 11, and LotR considered sci-fi too?

Spec Fic, Spec Fic, and I've give you the last one, but always going to Jedi fits the pattern and the GL Corp is at least creatively trying to use Sci-Fi to make it look like playing a race from the book is unreasonable, so credit.

 

[Azzy]

And herein lies the problem. The DM is the person who volunteered to entertain the group in a collaborative game. They shouldn't be so possessive over the group's game, or act like the fact that the thing they volunteered to do is so much work that it entitles them to be the Most Important Person; the Alphas Friend or something.

The DM should have as much authority as the game group deigns to give them. If the majority of the game group (including the DM and other potential DMs) gives the DM seat the authority to set the base rules (what goes in, what's excluded, house rules, rules modifications, etc), then the group should abide that level of authority. If individual DMs or players are not on board with the level of authority that the game group has given the DM seat, they can walk.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Because the game takes too little time teaching people how to DM and too much time telling them that just by volunteering, they are always right and special and don't have to care about the desires of their friends/audience and calling that 'DM empowerment to cement that feeling and terrible culture?

That's a strawman. And lots of hyperbole.

It's a social game where everyone is there to have fun. But the reality is the DM does far more work than any other player, and they (should) communicate what the expectations are for the game. You as a player can choose to participate or not. End of story. That doesn't mean DMs are always right and special and don't have to care about players, or are "alphas" or other such nonsense.