D&D 5E Is the Default Playstyle of 5E "Monty Haul?"

[DarkCrisis]

You were complaining before I asked questions though:

Interesting how one person can read something and get a totally different impression than intended. I thought it came off more "Hooray 2E!"

 

[Blue]

That's not how people play because gameplay is limited by the constraints of how long those encounters take & how long a session lasts. Sure you can spread that out over multiple sessions but the rest mechanics are structured to be easy for players to force through no matter what the GM throws out shy of outright Fiat & the party is still able to trivially blaze through all of the prior filler encounters with ease up until the last fight or two. When the default assumptions fail to account for realities of things like table & session time in any way shy of throwing it to the GM to solve those default assumptions are a failure of design.

Oh, I agree that how DMs run 5e and how it was designed are far out of whack.

But asking if the rules default to Monty Haul the answer is no, but default DM style (including mine, I'm not throwing stones) does default to that and needs to be adjusted.

Since early 5e that's been my biggest problem with it, and I see no signs 2024 edition is going to solve it, which may push me away from that.

 

[Oofta]

Only if the PC can't quickly recover those hit points and-or resources. Otherwise, it's a nothingburger.

With 0e-1e-2e it was possible to whittle a character or party down a little bit at a time through ongoing attrition - a trap here, a seemingly-trivial encounter there, etc. - faster than they could recover; eventually forcing a choice between pressing on weakened or stopping for a few days to rest. And that's including the presence of Clerical healing - often it wasn't/isn't enough.

Now, with recovery so much faster and easier, that model has largely Gone Away. If you can't whack them down quickly, they get (almost) everything back.

The point isn't necessarily to severely damage or kill the PCs right now, it's to weaken/delay/annoy them just that little bit more such that they're easier to kill later if they keep going. Death by a thousand cuts.

It's one of the reasons I use the gritty rest rules with a short rest being overnight and a long rest being several days (typically a week unless they pay for "spa" treatment).

But I'm playing in the Tomb of Annihilation right now and while short rests are fairly easy to come by we've probably had a dozen or so encounters because the long rests get constantly interrupted. It probably would have been a TPK right now except our front line is typically a moon druid who gets her wildshape back on a short rest and my way of mercy monk who can heal himself and others with ki points.

If you want to make attrition matter, it's not that hard. I think the rest and recovery rules could use rework but that's another topic.

 

[Azzy]

No. 5e seems to be more stingy with magic items by default than some other editions. I've actively give more than I've rolled for, and I still haven't been a Monty Haul DM.

 

[CleverNickName]

Is the Default Playstyle of 5E "Monty Haul?"​

Maybe. It's all a matter of perspective, I guess.

For those of us who grew up playing B/X or BECM, with those save-or-die rules, no multiclassing, and no for-sale magic item shops, the 5th Edition of D&D can feel a lot like Monty Haul. First-level characters are a great deal more powerful than they were in B/X, and they only get stronger. Everyone can heal themselves anytime they want, for free, no magic required. Healing potions are sold right off the shelf at the grocery store next to the "iron rations," and everything else can be found and purchased behind the scenes with a few weeks of downtime.

But if you started paying D&D with the 3rd Edition rules, you might think 5th Edition feels a little too meager. Bonuses no longer stack, ability scores are capped, many spells got nerfed considerably, the number of save throws has doubled, and so forth. Characters in 5E might feel less nuanced and distinctive now. Multiclassing is there, sure, but it's not as "good" as it used to be. Buying magic items can now take weeks--if your DM even allows it in the first place--and costs an absolute fortune.

And if you've only ever played 5E, the "default playstyle" from your point of view is going to be whatever you (or your DM) has decided it should be. 5E is incredibly flexible, especially if you elect to use any of the optional rules in the DMG, and it can feel as easy or gritty, as modern or antiquated, as you want it to.

 

[Stormonu]

This again?

I have no problem with 5E, other than I don't get to play it enough. I've never had a problem challenging players in the current version, and have had several character deaths and at least one TPK.

 

[Azzy]

This again?

I have no problem with 5E, other than I don't get to play it enough. I've never had a problem challenging players in the current version, and have had several character deaths and at least one TPK.

Right? I've had to dial back encounters more than a few times. Haven't had any TPKs (because of dialing back), but I actively work to avoid them (except in the case of climatic battles) because I don't think that's particulary fun for either me as the DM or for the players.

 

[Azzy]

In my case "Monty Haul" isn't just gold and magic items. It's getting any kind of reward for minimal effort. This can be XP, Levels, Titles, Story Developments, or - heck - even the reward of playing the game itself. Most of the time my players can pass through on auto-pilot, halfway paying attention to the plot, combats, etc. They're still rewarded with the game continuing on as if they had played masterfully, using every resource, been thoroughly engaged, etc.

That's stretching the definition of "Monty Haul" beyond its actual meaning, though.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I'm sure most of you are familiar with the expression of the "Monty Haul" style game.
(In case you're not, here's a link to an article: Monty Haul)

Specifically, looking at the 1990 "Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide" definition: "a 'giveaway' campaign in which the players receive treasure and experience disproportionate to the dangers they overcome."

Is there any "danger" inherent in 5E? In my two groups currently playing 5E, I have the following:

• A 3rd level party that functions around 7th level.
• A 7th level party that functions around 14th level.

Any time I give them XP or treasure, it doesn't feel "earned." More importantly, it doesn't feel "needed."

• Why worry about an extra +1 to hit when you already destroy anything the DM throws at you?
• An extra 6 HP when you don't even drop to half health in a routine combat?
• What incentive could there be for playing smart when every battle can be won with standard operating procedures? (It's not important to exploit a creature's weakness when you're going to be able to kill it with ease anyway.)

No, not my experience. I’ve had 3 characters die in the last 18 months of play

 

[jasper]

Monty Haul. Oh you are reading this post. Take 600xp and a +2 weapon. Everyone except Oofta because he did not like my last post. And drank the last soda last week.
Easy. Yes, easy to learn, play, and gain levels.
Monty Haul as easy fights always. NO. I have 111 Kills in 380 sessions with 2 to 8 pcs with the average party level being weak to very strong depending on who shows up. I have ONLY ran the hard covers and some of seasonal Adventure League DMs Guild. Except for new players, I let the dice lie where they roll. I roll out in the open, and am not afraid of killing a pc. The players at my tables have ran the spectrum from special force with tactic nukes to my gawd the dice love these idiots. (And does Bob have an imp on his shoulder reminding him to breathe?)