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D&D General Should players be aware of their own high and low rolls?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It sounds like a version of the optimal argument from pages past. Real people don't always do the optimal thing.
Even smart people aren't capable of it. But apparently it only applies to monsters, because tracking, smithing, tinkering, alchemy and quite frankly, every skill in the book are all very important to adventurers and their success, so his idea that it would only take a few days or weeks to learn it all would mean that every PC was proficient with almost everything(some tools are not necessary) before they depart at 1st level.
 

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We are. In standard worlds monsters are rare and not encountered by the populace at anywhere close to the same rates as PCs.
In standard D&D worlds libraries are common, you can buy guides to monsters for 50gp, every large town has clerics, wizards and other specialists who can tell you about monsters and there are guilds and organizations specifically to help you do your job well. It beggars belief that intelligent professional adventures can only remember 2-4 things about the things they deal with as part of their job.

It feels like you think this is the way the world should work:

"Oh look -- a skeleton"
"Wow. What is that, I've never seen it before."
"Actually we fought them a year ago"
"I must have forgotten. I never bother remembering things"
"Also, everyone tells stories about them. They are in so many stories!"
"I never listen to other people"
"They are in VOLO'S GUIDE TO MONSTERS"
"Never read it"
"We're part of a guild that regular hires out to fight them. We've met dozens of people who've fought them"
"I never talk to other professionals or share info with them"
"Clerics know how to summon them"
"I never talk to clerics"
"Most large towns have libraries you can visit"
"I never do so"
"Do you know anything about ANY MONSTERS?"
"Of course! Over the last five years of training to be a paladin, I have learned a little about Orcs AND Goblins."

-----------
Unless your world's people are significantly stupider than people in our world are, the extreme lack of knowledge about monsters that most D&D games expect is really unrealistic and is purely a gamist way to have fun. I play the rules as written, but I don't try to pretend then are anything other than rules and are nothing like realistic!
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
In standard D&D worlds libraries are common, you can buy guides to monsters for 50gp
Elminster says that Volo even gets a little right in that book. Your PC can rely upon it, but if he does he's getting a lot of misinformation. The book in the game is not the book the DM bought at the store.
It feels like you think this is the way the world should work:

"Oh look -- a skeleton"
"Wow. What is that, I've never seen it before."
"Actually we fought them a year ago"
"I must have forgotten. I never bother remembering things"
"Also, everyone tells stories about them. They are in so many stories!"
"I never listen to other people"
"They are in VOLO'S GUIDE TO MONSTERS"
"Never read it"
"We're part of a guild that regular hires out to fight them. We've met dozens of people who've fought them"
"I never talk to other professionals or share info with them"
"Clerics know how to summon them"
"I never talk to clerics"
"Most large towns have libraries you can visit"
"I never do so"
"Do you know anything about ANY MONSTERS?"
"Of course! Over the last five years of training to be a paladin, I have learned a little about Orcs AND Goblins."
Nope. That's what game play, backgrounds, and most importantly SKILLS determine. If you want to know about skeletons, specifically the vulnerability to bludgeoning, you might need to make a roll. Or part of your background might have been fighting undead as part of the temple's irregulars and I would just give it to you.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
The problem with the latter one here is if you're not metagaming, the "decision" shouldn't even come up. There's nothing special about that moment in time compared to any of the others that have gone on while they're gone. You're not "not deciding to go" you're not even considering it.
You don’t actually know that though is the thing. Theoretically, had you separated the two groups so that they didn’t know what was going on with the other, it’s entirely possible that the players in the second group might coincidentally decide to rejoin the first group at the exact moment they get themselves into danger. They also might not. You can’t know what actually “would have happened” if the players didn’t know what was going on with the other group. As you observed, making any decision at all in that moment is making a metagame decision.
It’s really not parallel to the attack choices against monsters; in that case you're going to be likely deciding to use something.
Sure, but likewise, if you know the monster’s weaknesses, you can’t know what you would do if you didn’t know the monster’s weaknesses. You can use your player knowledge to exploit the weaknesses, or you can choose not to exploit those weaknesses, but either way you’re making a metagame choice.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
In standard D&D worlds libraries are common, you can buy guides to monsters for 50gp
Guides that are explicitly stated as having imperfect knowledge.
every large town has clerics, wizards and other specialists who can tell you about monsters and there are guilds and organizations specifically to help you do your job well. It beggars belief...
What beggars belief is the idea that an 18-year-old fresh off the farm with their grandfather's dented sword would have years of formal training. If the player is smart enough to think all this through then good for them, they get to ask around, in-character to learn it. Or we get to off-screen handle that, age the character a few years, and anything that was urgently in need of stopping is now long since happened. Or make a lore roll. There's a chance you know something relevant, but it's certainly not guaranteed.
Unless your world's people are significantly stupider than people in our world are, the extreme lack of knowledge about monsters that most D&D games expect is really unrealistic and is purely a gamist way to have fun. I play the rules as written, but I don't try to pretend then are anything other than rules and are nothing like realistic!
Two things. One, how many people in the real world are incredibly well-versed in serial killers? I mean to the level you're talking about. Very, very few. A few thousand at most. And it took them years, decades, of study. Most people in the real world try to pretend that there aren't monsters among us. Two, in the real world people are stupid enough to knowlingly vote for monsters.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Actually, its only so because of area attacks. Dispersing is not something you'd see much prior to heavy deployment of artillery in militaries; there was little upside to it, and a lot of downside.

I offered several examples of why, upon seeing a dragon, someone might say to disperse aside from the breath weapon.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Well, if you're defining the difference between a neutral and a negative outcome as a "gotcha" then, yes, that is in fact a tautology.

So if you think an enemy is vulnerable to radiant, and it turns out that it isn't, that's not a very negative outcome. But if it turns out they are actually immune to radiant, and you cast Guiding Bolt, it's a wasted spell slot and a wasted turn. Is that a gotcha?

How about a monster that usually has a really low intelligence, but yours has a high intelligence, and the player (missing the telegraph that this monster isn't stupid) mistakenly targets it with an Int save, and then does so again because they can't believe the monster actually saved. Is that a gotcha?
No to both - they're simply part of the trial-and-error learning curve.
EDIT: Also, if the result is to keep players on their toes so that they are genuinely on edge/worried about what a monster can do, instead of yawning and saying, "Oh, another one of these", then call it a gotcha if you want but I think it's a good thing.
Agreed,
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Correction: Any reasonably smart PC would know everything the player does about non-unique monsters if the rules were intended to be realistic, which they are not.
A longtime player knows most to all things about most to all monsters, especially if the player also DMs.

One time a DM I played with put us into the game world as ourselves transported there(not the first DM to do that to me). He had us rate our stats and then put in our proficiencies.

As a kid I was taught tracking by a Cherokee farmhand at the farm I lived on. I still remembered enough that I am better than non-proficient, so I put down tracking. When I got to spellcraft I thought about it and then wrote that down as well. After I turned in my character and the DM was looking it over, he stopped and said, "Seriously?! You're listing spellcraft?" My response to him was to describe any spell effect in the book and tell me what components are used and I would tell him what spell it was. He paused for a moment and then said, "Spellcraft approved." He knew I could do it.

My ability to know what spells are being cast and track doesn't mean that my street urchin rogue or soldier fighter should also have those skills. The same goes for my ability with monsters.
 


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