D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[Incenjucar]

In 5E, a fighter knocking pushing away and knocking prone a bunch of mooks who have completely surrounded them is an impossibility. In most action media, it's a cliche.

 

[ECMO3]

In 5E, a fighter knocking pushing away and knocking prone a bunch of mooks who have completely surrounded them is an impossibility. In most action media, it's a cliche.

I do that all the time with my fighter. She is a Rune Knight with unarmed combat fighting style, tavern Brawler, skill expert-athletics, grappler feat and a 20 strength.

She has simultaneously had two Giant sized enemies both prone and grappled at the same time (so they can't get up) while she shoves and/or attacks a 3rd and 4th enemy.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

She has simultaneously had two Giant sized enemies both prone and grappled at the same time (so they can't get up) while she shoves and/or attacks a 3rd and 4th enemy.

okay, now you're just being intentionally obtuse. this is not what he was referring to and you know it (and that's ignoring that what you described would take a level 20 fighter a minimum of 2 rounds to actually set up without action surge).

 

[ECMO3]

If you want your batman option, then level cap your fighters. Let the rest of us have parity.

That won't work for me. I need the mechanics to prevent not only me, but other Batmans from exclipsing Superman.

Give me a name.

Drizzt Dourden, Bruenner Battlehammer, Caramon Majere, Abdel Adrian, Kelemvor, Havilar, Erivis Cale. That is seven right there.

I would also say Dove Falconhand, but that might be a stretch as she is a chosen of mystra.

Give me the strongest fighter in all of DnD's 50 years of literature, the walking legend that level 20 fighters should aspire to be the same way they aspire to be El-"fought through Hell"-Minster and Morden-"my job is multiversal balance"-kainen. Who is the Fighter that Demogorgon respects and fears? The Fighter that Dagon plans around the existence of?

Drizzt BEAT Demogorgon as a well as the Ghost King.

Kelemvor was so powerful he became a God!

Cale took on Mephistopholes and Kesson Rel (albeit with help)

We have five DECADES of lore, surely there has to be at least ONE fighter who is a legend, who is not a god, right?

Yes we do. That was easy.

 

[ECMO3]

okay, now you're just being intentionally obtuse. this is not what he was referring to and you know it (and that's ignoring that what you described would take a level 20 fighter a minimum of 2 rounds to actually set up without action surge).

I have done it with my character in play using RAW. How is that being obtuse? And by the way that is at 9th level, not 20th and I can grapple and shove 2 enemies in a single round while also getting in a single attack at advantage.

Also fighters have action surge at 2nd level so saying you need to use action surge to do it is not really relevant, that is a class ability. If we were talking about Barbarians or Rangers that might matter. The statement was it is an impossibility and it isn't. Finally, even without action surge no one said anything about doing it in a single turn.

As a point of fact a 20th level fighter can knock 8 enemies prone in a single turn without any feats or fighting style bonuses at all. That is not being obtuse, that is RAW.

 

[ECMO3]

Give me a Fighter that can swing around on grappling hooks and do sick takedowns on multiple dudes at once and be competent at mental skills and isn't a literal ninja and maybe the light from the star of 'this is a reasonable point' will reach this argument sometimes within the lifespan of the Sol System.

My Rune knight can do all of that. My Rune Knight has not swung around on a grappling hook because there has been no reason to but she could and she has done the rest of that.

It is simple to build a fighter to do that, it is a piece of cake. I don't get why people think this is impossble to build.

Any fighter of 5th level or higher with a high strength can do takedowns on multiple enemies in a single turn without even going into subclasses or feats and anyone who takes proficiency in mental skills is going to be good at those skills even if they are playing on point buy and dumped that stat.

My Kender Paladin actually did do all of that, including the grappling hook, although technically she was not a fighter. She did it without using anything unique to a Paladin though.

The real reason fighters are boring for players is because players insist on having a high constitution and taking narrow feats like GWM and PAM which do nothing for gameplay outside of combat and are minimally effective and restrictive in combat. If you do that, then yes your fighter will suck. Go with a 10 or 12 con and get feats that actually improve the character and your fighter will be a bad ass and super fun to play.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I'm not being obtuse I have done it with my character in play using RAW. How is that being obtuse?

because what you described is not what he described in a matter that is so obvious that the fact that you could think it was the same is simply not reasonable.

And by the way that is at 9th level, not 20th and I can grapple and shove 2 enemies in a single round while also getting in a single attack at advantage.

uh - no, the attack is straight (unless you get advantage from somewhere else) since the only place i can find that you're getting that attack from is tavern brawler, which lets you grapple as a bonus action if you hit with an attack (which also means that grapple attempt is reliant on the first strike hitting, making it significantly less likely you actually get it off to begin with).

Also fighters have action surge at 2nd level so saying you need to use action surge to do it is not really relevant, that is a class ability. If we were talking about Barbarians or Rangers that might matter. The statement was it is an impossibility and it isn't.

it is not in any way practical to attempt to knock away and prone an entire horde as a fighter, and it's an especially terrible use of action surge to attempt to do so.

Further no one said anything about doing it in a single turn.

you see? this is what i mean by intentionally obtuse. he means this trope. are you going to tell me this isn't a single turn? and hell, if anything he underexaggerated what's actually happening in this trope - from a mechanical perspective, this would look more like opposing a horde's worth of grapples in a single turn and knocking that horde prone and away from you on top of that. that's not even close to possible in 5e.

As a point of fact though, a 20th level fighter can knock 8 enemies prone in a single turn without any feats or fighting style bonuses at all. That is not being obtuse, that is RAW.

oh, okay, i see the problem here - it seems you didn't actually read what he said.

In 5E, a fighter knocking pushing away and knocking prone a bunch of mooks who have completely surrounded them is an impossibility.

read it again and tell me the problem with what you just said, ecmo.

 

[Incenjucar]

A fighter could, over the course of a week, pay the mooks off to cooperate, position the mooks in a circle, prone, five feet from a central 5' square, and then stand on that square, and make wooshing noises with their sword, and that would be closer to what I proposed.

If you don't like fighters being able to do things, just be honest about it. You're allowed to that opinion.

 

[ECMO3]

because what you described is not what he described in a matter that is so obvious that the fact that you could think it was the same is simply not reasonable.

What he said was "pushing away and knocking prone a bunch of mooks that have surrounded them is an impossibility".

That is simply false. It may sound cool but it is not true.

uh - no, the attack is straight (unless you get advantage from somewhere else) since the only place i can find that you're getting that attack from is tavern brawler, which lets you grapple as a bonus action if you hit with an attack (which also means that grapple attempt is reliant on the first strike hitting, making it significantly less likely you actually get it off to begin with).

Attack- shove prone
Extra Attack - unarmed strike with advantage because enemy is prone
Tavern Brawler Bonus action - grapple
Action surge Attack - grapple 2nd guy
actuon surge Extra attack - shove prone second guy

That is how the rules work, two opponents proned and grappled and an attack on one of them with advantage. Now that assumes all of those land, but with expertise and max strength, often advantage on athletics and allies using Hex or Silvery Barbs they usually do land. I have missed and lost my bonus action grapple and I have failed a grapple check. But most of the time I succeed.

Thematically when I make the unarmed strike I typically stomp on the prone guy.

Combining prone and grapple will give an enemy permanent disadvantage attacking you (or anyone else), while you have permanent advantage attacking them. You can do this to two enemies at once and with action surge you can put it in place on both in a single turn. To break those conditions the enemy has to spend an entire action to TRY to remove the grapple and that will usually fail if you are a max strength fighter with athletics proficiency. That doesn't always work, some enemies are too big to shove or grapple (although precious few if you are a rune knight), some enemies have teleportation to get out of it, some are immune, some don't use attacks, and sometimes other party members won't want enemies prone, but this works effectively on a whole lot of enemies in a whole lot of situations.

Any strength-based fighter can do this effectively, but if you optimize your build for it (Custom Rune Knight, unarmed combat, Skill Expert, Tavern Brawler, Grappler) I think the build is generally more powerful in combat than an optimized PAM-GWM fighter build while still being able to dish out great damage as any basic fighter when control is not the right move. In addition you pick up two extra skill proficiencies in anything you want to boost out of combat skills.

it is not in any way practical to attempt to knock away and prone an entire horde as a fighter, and it's an especially terrible use of action surge to attempt to do so.

Ok so two things. The poster did not say it wasn't practical, he said it was impossible, those are different statements.

Second I use action surge all the time to knock enemies prone. It takes half movement to stand up from prone, which means if you knock an enemy prone you can usually prevent that enemy from attacking you on their turn by simply moving away. Obviously that is situational and depends on the battlefield, but it absolutely false to say it is "especially terrible".

For example if you are fighting 4 trolls and you use action surge and prone all of them and then use all your move to back up they get 4 opportunity attacks on you with disadvantage and they lose 12 attacks on their turn. You are talking away a reaction and 8 attacks and giving them disadvantage on the 4 attacks they get. If you have mobile or they have already used their reaction they don't even get an opportunity attack with disadvantage.

Is that better than using action surge to burn 4 attacks on a single troll? It depends, but most of the time it is a lot better. If I am using action surge it is usually to do something other than attack an enemy with a weapon two extra times.

Using action surge just to attack is what is usually "especially terrible". Unless your attacks are doing something more than just damage or you are going to kill an enemy it is usually a waste when you can do so much more with it.

read it again and tell me the problem with what you just said, ecmo.

I don't see a problem at all with what I said. If I am surrounded by 4 trolls I can do that at 5th level .... in a single turn. If I am surrounded by 8 halflings I can do it at 20th level .... in a single turn. And that is without any feats and that is also the maxiumum you can possibly be surrounded by. Most of the time you are surrounded it will be by fewer than that.

As a point of fact it is not impossible. It may be situationally impossible or improbable based on statistics, but it is not impossible.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The core problem with all these Superman/Batman comparisons is that Superman and Wonder Woman are both fighters (tanks, stand at the front, dishes out damage, no "multiple power levels" of a barbarian). Batman is a rogue. (Squishy, works from the sidelines, does unreasonable amounts of damage from the shadows, weird bag of tricks). Spellcasters are the likes of Zatanna Zatara, Dr. Fate, John Constantine, and Scarlet Witch (all oddballs with weird and explicit spells).