D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Emberashh]

But a list of distinct powers? No. That belongs in optional variant features and subclasses, when it comes to the martial classes

Ive always felt that "powers" need to be things that are actually unique and distinctive to the particular class/subclass you're playing.

Having powers for "Trip" or "Smash Skull" is kind of like needing spell slots to breath lol.

Tables that just don't even play martials because spells are always "the correct answer", I don't think I've ever seen, in that time.

Ive played 3 separate Rangers in 5e and never once cast a spell with any of them, and two of those were even the PHB Rangers. Spells aren't the end all be all and definitely weren't missed.

i had hoped this thread might've managed to go on a little longer on it's original premise before devolving into the usual martial vs caster nonsense

Its its own little Godwins Law I like to think lmao.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But it is a valid part of the system and one thats underused for various reasons, which is where Id say the problem is.

When people are talking about wishing their choices for cars got better mileage, it is not helpful to tell them they can mod their car for better mileage.

And that idea is especially bad in this example where it involves basically begging a whole other person to to that work for us.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It's not drawing out the swords power.

Only a master swordsman can deflect.
Only a master swordsman can brace a hold the sword when the sword hit by a 9th level spell.
Only a master swordsman can swing an energized sword into a wave of energy.
Only a master swordsman hit the veil between planes.

The sword is magic of easy. I rule a nonmagical sword made of special material can do the same.

5e just makes adamant and mithral magic for some reason.

Okay, literally in the video you presented they say "he's able to draw on the Sword of Light's full power!" right before the line that if Garouy was here to fight this guy it would be a good match. So, that was directly from the example you gave.

But, okay, you don't care about the weapon being magical, but you insist the weapon must be special... why? A master swordsman is no less a master because they are using an inferior tool. In fact, it would make more sense if a master was so skilled that they could use an inferior tool to produce a superior result. Because it doesn't matter about the weapon, it is all their skill and ability.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Ive always felt that "powers" need to be things that are actually unique and distinctive to the particular class/subclass you're playing.

Having powers for "Trip" or "Smash Skull" is kind of like needing spell slots to breath lol.

The reason people want powers is to make them reliable and repeatable.

When you cast fireball, it works the same way every time, no need for adjudication, no new rules on the spot, no need for permission. Boom. Fireball.

Without it, you're suddenly in a world of uncertainty. How is this DM in this situation going to have me do this? IS it going to work the same this time as it did last? Are they going to say no because it's a second Tuesday and someone on TikTok has convinced them people can't fall down on Second Tuesdays? Oh good, you just wasted a turn.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Okay, literally in the video you presented they say "he's able to draw on the Sword of Light's full power!" right before the line that if Garouy was here to fight this guy it would be a good match. So, that was directly from the example you gave.

But, okay, you don't care about the weapon being magical, but you insist the weapon must be special... why? A master swordsman is no less a master because they are using an inferior tool. In fact, it would make more sense if a master was so skilled that they could use an inferior tool to produce a superior result. Because it doesn't matter about the weapon, it is all their skill and ability.

Also note that Gourry without mind control casually cuts through rocks and ballista bolts using the fake blade tenuously installed in the Hikari no Ken's hilt by a tiny dowel.

 

[Emberashh]

When people are talking about wishing their choices for cars got better mileage, it is not helpful to tell them they can mod their car for better mileage.

A more accurate analogy would be "press that inconveniently placed Better Mileage button".

And that idea is especially bad in this example where it involves basically begging a whole other person to to that work for us.

I don't believe its "work" to call for an Intimidation check when the player expresses their desire to do so for some effect.

Its not that complicated.

 

[Vaalingrade]

A more accurate analogy would be "press that inconveniently placed Better Mileage button".

Inconveniently placed? It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

i had hoped this thread might've managed to go on a little longer on it's original premise before devolving into the usual martial vs caster nonsense

My suggestions for what it's worth:

• Give better guidance and "permission" to improvise and do wild stuff with social and physical actions in the PHB
• Make all utility spells that directly bypass physical actions (like knock) have drawbacks that using a skill doesn't
• Give certain classes abilities to turn failures into success, and reward improvisation with inspiration (not up to DM fiat, just you succeeded, you gain inspiration) and with mitigated failure states (I failed to turn the chandelier into a battering ram, but now it's a barrier between us and the enemy that was lining up a shot" or the same but, "now it's providing cover and distraction for the rogue to do the thing they were gonna do". That sort of thing. You don't get what you wanted, but you get something.
• Redescribe skills with somewhat more fantastical actions in mind on the high end, noted as being more difficult or requiring more mastery
  • Give more levels of mastery than prof and expertise. The Master Sneak can walk through shadows, but the novice sneak who is just proficient, cannot. Athletics might allow bigger leaps and faster movement (not more distance moved, but the kind of speed where people can't see what you just did because you moved too fast)
• Make rituals, portals, magical traps, permanent magical fields and effects, all things you can manipulate or break or perform with skills
• Crafting magic items shouldn't require that you are magical, just that the materials used are. and that you have the expertise to understand how to use those materials correctly
• let martials interact with spells and magical effects with their physical tools and weapons and skills
  • Cutting through force effects
  • Interrupting spellcasting
  • Master level: choke a caster on their stunted magic. You block the casting, and the caster is hurt be the blowback of the inverted spell
  • steal the magic from a spell or effect and use it to do rogue stuff or whatever
  • Use a bonus action to interact with a magical effect and syphon part of it into a weapon right before you attack with it, gaining more damage, changing the damage type, and/or other effect

 

[Micah Sweet]

i had hoped this thread might've managed to go on a little longer on it's original premise before devolving into the usual martial vs caster nonsense

To be fair, it is an ongoing issue that remains unresolved, so people still have strong opinions about it. Beyond that, the OP said in a later post that they were asking about it in terms of WotC doing something, which seems unlikely and it followed in discussion would likely lead to very little talk at all.

That last bit is my opinion, of course, but I stand by it and have seen nothing that speaks against it.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

A good option would be to remove the casters' options to overcome obstacles by themselves through spellslots and instead make then able to create circumstances where the other party members will be the one to overcome the obstacles with the help of the casters' spells.

Team work, yeah!

ie: Instead of a Disintegration spells that breaks force constructs, have the caster create a Fractal Blade that is a martial weapon that deal Xd10 damage to force constructs.

Or create Spellbreaker Weapon than can make attack rolls against spell effect to dispel them.

Or make Teleport or Shapechange require CON saves, making martials better at benefitting them.

Or make Paneshift reduce your HP max when not in your home plane, so martials would be able to spend more time in planar travel.

etc

Make casters force multipliers instead of I-win-buttons