Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Emberashh]

How is this DM in this situation going to have me do this? IS it going to work the same this time as it did last? Are they going to say no because it's a second Tuesday and someone on TikTok has convinced them people can't fall down on Second Tuesdays? Oh good, you just wasted a turn.

Bad dming is instilling a table culture thats not just afraid to just talk these things out, but will have to repetitively do so every single time.

My group has an unwritten running list of random things we can do when we want to just go completely off the cuff in whatever game we're playing, and that all just built up over time.

A table shouldn't be relitigating intimidating the peasant every time the party passes through a new town, and when there is something genuinely new to hash out, there shouldn't be this culture where you're arguing yourself out of doing it out of fear for the whims of the DM.

 

[Emberashh]

Inconveniently placed? It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.

Page 193 PHB. Hardly hidden though not as prominent, and it ,in fact contrary to my own memory, is right where it should be with the rest of the Actions.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Not so much an issue as a feature. The point is that what spells can do is relative, and just because magic is inherently reality warping relative to our real world, doesn't make that an appropriate moniker in a world where magic actually does exist and is well permeated as part of that reality.

A meteor storm is flashy, but not inherently something "more" than a simple wild fire just by virtue of being difficult magic.

This is just so utterly baffling to me. How is this difficult to get? Yeah, a wildfire is real dangerous, but to start a wildfire, you need miles and miles of flammable material. Know what Meteor Swarm does to flammable material? It catches it on fire. Like, do I have to explain why a missile carrying napalm is more dangerous than a match, even though both can start a forest fire?

Here, let me put some perspective into this for you. Maybe this will help.

The DMG states that an anti-material rifle, these do 6d8 damage and have two shots. So 12d8 damage or 54 average. This is meant to emulate sci-fi weapons like the BFG and other massive damage energy guns. The Meteor Swarm does 40d6 or 140 damage. Yes, if I blew up 76 nukes across 56 miles of terrain, I'd do more devastation, but we are talking about an amount of damage equal to missiles with near pin-point accuracy and next to no collateral damage. ICBM's in today's world? They devastate the area for a kilometer. But the meteor swarm does functionally equivalent damage and can be narrowed to only an 80 ft diameter, or widened to a 160 ft diameter.

In a world where wooden boats and brick houses are the pinnacle of construction, having a hyper accurate ICBM with controllable collateral damage ISN'T warping?

Like this spiffy bag of holding I bought at Wal-Bogs with a coupon. whoop di doo.

Ah, I see. Magic isn't impressive when compared to magic. Having a pocket dimension the size of a house is nothing because you can buy a pocket dimension the size of a room. The argument is that the world is so magical that high level magic barely registers.

Okay, cool. So other than the power of money (which casters can make far more of far more easily) what does a martial bring to the table that can compete with all this magic?

Peanuts. (And incidentally also something we may well be getting close to doing in our real world)

We are no where close to literal immortality. Even if we stop old age (which I think is what you are refering to) you can still be shot and killed. However, Clone doesn't care. You can be disintegrated into ashes and you will come back to life. This is far beyond what we are currently capable of.

Also... seriously? Medical Miracles thousands of years in the making, which will alter the world as we know it are just... peanuts? You need to have some flippin' respect for how much time, effort and literal death has gone into our medical science, because you are looking at the end result of thousands of years of work, and treating it like any person off the street could just have figured it out on their own.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Most people I know who like playing fighters do so because they recognize that the game isn’t contained within the rules text. They know that they can trip, disarm, etc, by making checks. They know they can exceed jump distances by making a check. They know that anything fighters can do in those other games the 5e D&D fighter can do too, people on forums with too much stock in The Rules just dismissivelycall it “mother may I” and act like that makes it go away, like they aren’t just avoiding actual engagement with it.

LOL. 5E fighters don't even get abilities they had in 4E. Where's my Come and Get it? Gated behind DM whim, that's where.

Fighters have dick for narrative abilities compared to spellcasters. Everything is at the discretion of the DM, compared to spells, which are "DM This Happens" abilities. Where's my "I declare there's a secret door here" ability analogous to Passwall? Where's my ability to redirect a spell with my mundane shield, a basic fantasy staple?

Casters get all the stuff not contained in the text as well. AND they get to dictate to the world. Even with the most permissive DM "yes, and..."ing every martial request, casters still get to do more because they have the same skills plus actual class abilities that matter. The fact that a high level fighter needs to roll to jump 15-20 feet is a joke.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

The DMG states that an anti-material rifle

*antimatter

 

[Chaosmancer]

This reminds me somehow of the fact that folklore assigns various vulnerabilities and weakness to monsters which tend to get ignored in D&D 5E: vampires retain vestiges of these weaknesses (inability to cross running water, taking damage and temporarily losing regeneration while in sunlight) but it's not common to see things like e.g. mind flayers fleeing in terror from a rooster's crow, or nightwalkers being unable to cross a line made of salt. But you could!

You could also apply similar thinking to magical obstacles by requiring every obstacle including spells to have a mundane countermeasure or weakness. Perhaps Conjure Animals cannot harm anyone who is barefoot, and Wall of Force collapses if licked by a cow or stroked seven times with a raven feather.

This would incidentally boost "martials" but in a larger sense it really boosts Combat As War/puzzlegaming and mundanes of all stripes, including thieves and wizards who are using their "wise" brains and not their magical muscles. But certainly some warriors/martials could fit the Indiana Jones model of being brainy but not magical.

The problem with this is that it ends up being a matter of one of two things.

1) An intelligence roll to know the thing, then being lucky to have that thing either on you or nearby.

2) Pre-planning to fight a known threat, putting forth their weakness and guaranteeing a victory with few to no stakes.

I've run into this with Vampires. Vampires can be incredibly tough and difficult foes, worth that CR 12... unless you have sunlight, in which case they fold like wet paper. So any group not in the "we may die even considering this fight" camp, can pretty easily wreck a vampire the moment they can expose them to sunlight for multiple rounds.

 

[Minigiant]

Okay, literally in the video you presented they say "he's able to draw on the Sword of Light's full power!" right before the line that if Garouy was here to fight this guy it would be a good match. So, that was directly from the example you gave.

The context is what matters

Lina is attacking Gourry with THE strongest spell. Gourry could reflect weaker spells but a normal sword would break attempting to deflect and reflect the equivalent of 9th level magic.

But, okay, you don't care about the weapon being magical, but you insist the weapon must be special... why? A master swordsman is no less a master because they are using an inferior tool. In fact, it would make more sense if a master was so skilled that they could use an inferior tool to produce a superior result. Because it doesn't matter about the weapon, it is all their skill and ability

Weapon breakage.

A high level fighter could perform many great epic deeds with a mundane spell.

But blocking Tier 4 magic is too much for common steel. Masterwork steel sure.

Even a god cannot make a mundane pillow block a 50 cal bullet.

 

[Minigiant]

Also note that Gourry without mind control casually cuts through rocks and ballista bolts using the fake blade tenuously installed in the Hikari no Ken's hilt by a tiny dowel.

The DND version of Gourry would replace any non-psychic saving throw or his AC with an attack roll. And if his attack roll beats the offensive DC or attack roll, he takes no damage.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

LOL. 5E fighters don't even get abilities they had in 4E. Where's my Come and Get it? Gated behind DM whim, that's where.

Imagine you went to a con game, and you sat down with 5 others (4 players and a DM) and you got given 5 pregens and you got the 9th level fighter 1st level rogue. You have expertise and training in persuasion and intimidation and a bunch of other cool skills. You get 2 attacks and action surge and 1d6 sneak attack.

2nd fight of the night you roll initiative and count your movement and you can get only within 15 feet of any monster. So you tell the DM "I want to improvise my action and insult the enemy and put my sword behind my back and then have them all charge into me, as they do I swipe around taking an attack on each of the 5 of them."

what % of DMs do you think go "cool, yeah you have the cha and the intimidation and the persuasion that sounds cool lets do it"
what % of DMs do you think would look at you weird and not understand what makes you think you can pull 5 targets and make 5 attacks
what % of DMs do you think just say no.

Where's my Come and Get it? Gated behind DM whim, that's where.

so my answer is it most likely 9 out of 10 times isn't even there.

 

[James Gasik]

yeah the caster has MORE room, they have spell options to use to improvise the martials never will

play a hexblade warlock or a armor artificer and you will watch them go for grapple if they want.

wait it's a waste for a caster to grapple but a good option for a fighter?!?! you just proved my point better then I can.
You look at an action and the caster has so many better options you can't even imagine someone 'wasteing' an action on it... but your fighter or barbarian you think "yeah, thats good or better then my other options"... this is why martials need more options so when you look at there options and caster options it's not two different games.

this right here is the best casters rule martials drool argument I have ever read

Also aren't Druids good at grappling?