D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Stalker0]

All it needs it’s a
Vorpal sword,
a pair of boots of flying or at least boots of striding and springing,
a dwarven plate,
That will do pretty much the job.

There is the camp that says the best way to give fighters "the juice" is through magic items. Its certainly an option, but it does have a few roadblocks.

1) There is no guarrantee an item goes to the fighter. The group might just decide the flying boots are better in the mages hand. This is especially true if you are putting in a lot of gear especially to balance the fighter..... players might naturally gravitate towards "everyone gets some magic items"

2) It is DM dependent. A common weapon in this argument is that casters can "do as they wish" and naturally grow in power, whereas martials are more "mother may I", relying on looser DM interpretations to get their power. In some ways this is the same area.

Now if the classes had something where fighters can choose an item to "become" magical that at least puts some control back in their court, but that of course has its own set of possible issues.

And after a certain point the issue people have is they fundementally want a different level of fantasy then what the point of dnd is, which is a clear gap between "magic" and "mundane".

The common argument for the "martials" in this debate is that past a certain level point, they want to see that gap shrink. Aka high level martials should be doing "the impossible", not in the same way as casters, but in a way that a low level person would watch and go "I can't believe it".

Most people are fine with the low level martial being grounded by physics and the wizard every once in a while bending the rules of reality a bit. Because the gap isn't that large and the number of times the wizard can do it is relatively small. But past a certain point, the bending of reality gets pretty intense, and the martial is still grounded by physics. The camp that wants martials to close the gap basically want to remove that grounding at a certain point, and allow martials to start doing some reality bending "impossible things"

 

[Chaosmancer]

I find it interesting that these discussions pretty much never even have a passing mention of the Monk.

Despite that the monk can run almost 200ft up a wall, almost always nullify terminal fall damage, wade through a poison lake or run over it if they want to, survive indefinitely without food or water, and naturally cover a lot of the weaknesses martials have during combat.

And, of course, all of that is the base class.

The monk is in an awkward spot for me. They are generally mechanically weaker, because they have design energy and power put into giving them some semblance of parity with basic weapons and armor. So, in a way, it feels odd to bring them up as a good example, because they are so much weaker.

But also... Ki is the perfect solution. And many monk abilities would be the perfect solution. Like, I can honestly see a world where the monk is broken into the Barbarian, Fighter and Rogue. You turn unarmored defense and unarmed combat into a level 1 feat, and then start playing with ki abilities for those three classes. It would absolutely work,

The problem (in part) is that I don't want to chop up the monk and sell it to the other classes, I think the monk has a good story. But the story is that of martial arts... and all martials use martial arts. Leaning into that could be good.

 

[Krachek]

Okay, but that isn't anywhere close to the fantasy I enjoy. I like my fighter's having toys, but if stripped of their toys, I want them to still be a threat to reckon with, because THEY are powerful and dangerous, not because they have powerful and dangerous gear.

I agree survivalist life style is still trending.

 

[Chaosmancer]

My point is there is no way ot argue "just teleporting to another world" is not magical on some level, if that isnt magical, then magic is an innately pointless thing, its not magic its mundane.

Magic is doing the impossible, things that literally do not make sense, that is the point of playing a "magic" class, do impossible.

And after a certain point the issue people have is they fundementally want a different level of fantasy then what the point of dnd is, which is a clear gap between "magic" and "mundane".

The plus side to this is magic is accessible to all via these items, i feel imbracing that has always BEEN a part of DnD and the fantasy of it forever

I disagree the point of DnD is to have a clear distinction between magic and mundane. And if you want to define all that is "impossible" as magic, then all martials need magic. Simple as that.

 

[Krachek]

There is no guarrantee an item goes to the fighter. The group might just decide the flying boots are better in the mages hand.

Then the problem is not in the game rules but rather in how players and DM decide to put the Fighter on the back bench.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Indeed items are for mere fun. If PCs need transportation to go somewhere they will eventually always find a way to go where they want whatever the party composition.

Flying boots and a magic weapon are the "balanced healthy diet" of magic items.

If you're DM hasn't provided them to you by the time you encounter resistant or immune or flying enemies, your DM is neglecting you.

This isn't "Santa didn't get you the right toy". This is "mommy and daddy forgot to buy groceries and left Santa holding the bag."

(For the sake of clarity, in this analogy, Santa is the GM, and Mommy and Daddy are the game rules, the kids are the players)

 

[Minigiant]

We're veering back into "what even is magic?" again. The ship has distinctly sailed for D&D, but I wish we could have a universal model of power acquisition with different applications being the primary difference between classes. Something like Earthdawn, or wuxia/xinxia settings, where precisely what you're doing with power and how it expresses might be very different (and might take a martial/physically focused form) or not, but there's no question about everyone doing something to exceed the mortal baseline.

D&D is afraid to categorize the supernatural.

However past level 10 or so, every challenge that is still a challenge in every edition is supernatural and beyond the defeat of nature.

So every PC level 11 either

1. Should become supernatural
2. Have access to supernatural features like spells or infusions
3. Have access to supernatural external items

or

1. Know they will not have to deal with supernatural challenges often at all (low magic world)

The core issue is segments of the D&D fans not wanting an aspect of the first group nor the second.

 

[Krachek]

Flying boots and a magic weapon are the "balanced healthy diet" of magic items.

If you're DM hasn't provided them to you by the time you encounter resistant or immune or flying enemies, your DM is neglecting you.

This isn't "Santa didn't get you the right toy". This is "mommy and daddy forgot to buy groceries and left Santa holding the bag."

(For the sake of clarity, in this analogy, Santa is the GM, and Mommy and Daddy are the game rules, the kids are the players)

It‘s a game! You usually play it to have fun!
if someone want to face overwhelming ennemies that shut down all his capacities, then he can to into a real life war.

The job of the DM is to provide a setup where every players and PCs will be able to shine. A DM can make the life of casters or fighters as much painful as he want, but that won’t be fun for anybody.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Then the problem is not in the game rules but rather in how players and DM decide to put the Fighter on the back bench.

They decide that because that's what the rules lead them to.

 

[Krachek]

They decide that because that's what the rules lead them to.

DnD players are so easy to be manipulated!