D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Chaosmancer]

So one idea of a fighter gaining supernatural power with levels is found in Brandon Sanderson novels, which are often cited in the new fantasy wave.

In his Stormlight Archive series, The "Knights Radiant" are people whose actions allow them to bond with spirits, known as "Spren". As they grow their bond with their spren by acting out certain "ideals" they gain new powers, even spiritual swords and armor known as Shardblades and Shardplate.

To me its a great example of mundane "fighters" turning into supernatural warriors at the higher levels.

And, importantly, any shardblade or shardplate (if memory serves) that anyone can use is the result of dead spren. And it is far weaker than that which is created to aid a living Knight/spren duo. So it has some fundamental differences to the idea of magical items, because they are less items and more living embodiments of the bond between the fighter and the spirit.

 

[Emberashh]

Reading all 46 pages of this topic I came to the conclusion that the game would be much better if D&D design team remove all utility spells, leaving only the damage spells. Thus, any actions out of combat or aimed at utility would be resolved with skill checks. Well, I'm going to test this rule on the next table I'm going to run.

That was the same conclusion I came to, and is precisely how magic in LNO is going to be designed.

Utility magic will still exist, just, for the most part, not as explicit spells. Instead you'll be improvising such spells using skill checks and itll be balanced out by the chance of hazardous failure via a DCC-like Corruption mechanic. The few explicit spells that will be immune to this will not only be relatively high level, but will be locked behind spellcrafting requiring specific components.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I’m not sure why it’s so hard for folks to keep in mind that you could name a dozen people and it’s still gonna round to 0 when viewed as part of the D&D community.

Like I said, some folks I have on ignore (who I can’t recall ever saying the extreme claims I’ve been repeatedly calling out in this incredibly silly interaction but an easily recall them stating dissatisfaction with the fighter (y’all know there’s a distinction, yea?), a couple I don’t, set against the fact that most players like the fighter as is and play the Champion, which is the blandest subclass in the entirety of the edition, and all the social media posts, Reddit discussions, etc, where the “fighters are terrible and when you play one the group would be better off without you” crowd is heavily out numbered by everyone who doesn’t see the problem as…starkly as all that.

Maybe this is true, but you do understand that being heavily outnumbered is different from being alone.

So perhaps it would make sense to acknowledge that the claims are not isolated to a single user and stop implying some defect in the user for making the claim.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

I’m not sure why it’s so hard for folks to keep in mind that you could name a dozen people and it’s still gonna round to 0 when viewed as part of the D&D community.

how convenient, there is nothing anyone can say that will change your mind that I am somehow weird and not close to the norm.

Like I said, some folks I have on ignore (who I can’t recall ever saying the extreme claims I’ve been repeatedly calling out in this incredibly silly interaction but an easily recall them stating dissatisfaction with the fighter (y’all know there’s a distinction, yea?), a couple I don’t, set against the fact that most players like the fighter as is and play the Champion, which is the blandest subclass in the entirety of the edition, and all the social media posts, Reddit discussions, etc, where the “fighters are terrible and when you play one the group would be better off without you” crowd is heavily out numbered by everyone who doesn’t see the problem as…starkly as all that.

again I think (and unlike you I wont pretend to know) that it's 5-10% on both sides and no one has ANY way to know what side has more... then 80-90% are somewhere inbetween and most will agree with both sides when they make points.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Or you could have it such that the magic in the magic item(s) comes from the fighter.

"Long hours spent in communion with the tools of war has trained your fighter to understand the intelligence hidden within common leather, wood and steel.. choose x equipment, for you this is an Intelligent item with the following properties..xyz"

The item becomes powerful because of the fighter rather than the other way around.

Yeah, I'm not sure why we can't have several flavors of mythic martial:

1. basically mundane or actiony hero person that gets magic items at higher level that gives them the more mythic abilities -- either infused as you say or mandatory "found" or family weapon or whatever

2. mythical background that allows martial to manifest supernatural (for earth) powers -- son of god or just mystery background

#2 has room for the supernatural parts to manifest only at higher levels so you can have the action hero feel early and then get into more gonzo as the spellcasters do

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

I hear dissatisfaction with the fighter often enough. Not “non-casters are useless and casters are always the only correct answer”.

and as I said to DNDwarlord, I didn't say non casters are useless. I said we don't play them and there is a huge gulf especially at high level between what they and non casters can bring... so when MY GROUP plays we decide on if we are doing full caster or not full caster. Some half casters work for both some for one more then the other

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

the fact that most players like the fighter as is and play the Champion, which is the blandest subclass in the entirety of the edition, and all the social media posts, Reddit discussions, etc, where the “fighters are terrible and when you play one the group would be better off without you” crowd is heavily out numbered by everyone who doesn’t see the problem as…starkly as all that.

Impossible to know for sure. But as i've said before it is possible that most people are ok with the fighter as is AND would actually like the option of a mythic martial better.

I have a feeling that there is a large group of causual players that really don't think about this much, only play lower levels where it's not as prominent, only play adventure paths where ultility magic and proactive options are not as valued, etc.

They are fine with their blackberries but once the iphone comes along are not going to reject it out of some principled stand.

Impossible to know but a real possibilty.

 

[Minigiant]

Maybe everyone is going about it the wrong way.

In the old school,the assumption is that fighters were Christmas trees. You had

1. Magic Weapon +X
2. Second Magic Weapon +X
3. Magic Armor +X
4. Ranged Magic +X or Magic Shield or Magic
5. Mage Belt
6. Magic Hat
7. Magic Gloves
8. Magic Boots
9. Magic Cape

Now the 5e fighter is already good at combat so 1-4 are just extras. And all capes lost to Cloak of Protection.

What if all martials got a Hand based feature, Foot based feature, Waist based feature and Head based feature equivalent to a magic item?

Like a level 9 a fighter can get the features of one uncommon glove or gauntlet. Belts at level 12, Boots at 15.

 

[nevin]

I'm not too finicky about the particulars, but I think if you had a range of outcomes between

"I can produce the effects of that spell 100% of the time"

And..

"I cannot produce the effects of that spell at all"

Then you could more easily introduce things into the system that make casting more difficult or easier sometimes. Maybe you're standing on a leyline or the moon is just right or something and you get a bonus on whatever your casting.

You just reinvented Wild magic. Only going fir that if all the martials
Go to a crit fumble table that breaks weapons damages other party memebers etc.
Neither if thise ideas has ever been popular.

 

[Eubani]

I am ever surprised as too how much effort is spent to stop Fighters from getting nice things. Imagine the blowback if Fighter fans tried to dump on spellcasters as often and as heavy.