D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Chaosmancer]

Maybe the nonmagic Fighter continues from the origins of D&D as a literal wargame, where the point of the game is to simulate reallife military combat and tactics.

If that is the case, that is incredibly dumb. Because it hasn't been that for like... 45 years. That would be like still treating Dr. Pepper as medication.

 

[Yaarel]

If that is the case, that is incredibly dumb. Because it hasn't been that for like... 45 years. That would be like still treating Dr. Pepper as medication.

LOL! I keep getting the feeling that you are trying to kill the messenger.

 

[TheSword]

I was just watching some of The Gauntlet videos on Youtube; if you're not familiar, it's a test of high powered builds, to see if they can tackle a nasty solo adventure with the aid of two NPC sidekicks. In the last battle, you have to stop a Mind Flayer Arcanist from finishing a ritual after defeating his goons.

The last video I saw, the player's character died, the Expert NPC died, and the warrior remained...but it was basically over at that point because the Arcanist was protected by a Wall of Force, so even if they miraculously defeated the minions, they couldn't stop the Mind Flayer from doing what they were up to.

This is a problem that only has a magical solution, and this was only a level 14 adventure.

Wait. So the magical dependency is when a DM has created a magical dependency - entirely arbitrarily?

By linking victory conditions expressly to possessing a single spell, that’s not a magic dependency that’s a disintegration dependency. What if the caster wizard didn’t happen to have disintegrate?

There wasn’t a single way to stop the ritual without bringing down the wall of force? That seems like a serious problem with the DM not a problem with the system. Or am I seeing this wrong?

 

[TheSword]

The reason this argument goes no-where is because the solutions proposed don’t solve the essential problems for a few reasons.

• They either just increase power (improving saves / resisting effects they already had a chance to resist)
• Or llow fighters to do things they could already do better (see level up manouvers)

Because nobody has actually agreed what the essential abilities that every character needs to have access to are, there’s no actual proposal that takes them into account which seems to be a fundamental flaw in the argument. We see fighter class proposals again and again that just make a more powerful fighter. That makes me think that no matter how it’s dressed up and debated folks just want more powerful fighters.

As a result everyone is caught in the long grass bickering about what fighters or rogues should be able to do, instead of working out what they need to be able to do. Conversations around supernatural and magical are pointless. Nobody really cares about that other than absolute die-hards.

 

[Minigiant]

Because, this isn't really a question. You are trying to make it a question by partitioning things and saying that martials can't exceed certain arbitrarily decided limits. Because they are human. And forgetting it seems that my entire point is that not all martials are human.

I
Want
Martials
To
Exceed
Those
Limits

The point is one has to determine the limits to know what martials are exceeding.
The point is "Fighters should have 25 STR" means nothing if they still use the Strength rules for Medium creatures.

 

[James Gasik]

Maybe the nonmagic Fighter continues from the origins of D&D as a literal wargame, where the point of the game is to simulate reallife military combat and tactics.

Sure but in Chainmail, magic-users were supposed to be far more powerful units than fighting-men, basically siege engines on legs. Do we really believe that Wizards* are supposed to be far more powerful than Fighters in an RPG?

*shorthand for full caster.

 

[James Gasik]

Wait. So the magical dependency is when a DM has created a magical dependency - entirely arbitrarily?

By linking victory conditions expressly to possessing a single spell, that’s not a magic dependency that’s a disintegration dependency. What if the caster wizard didn’t happen to have disintegrate?

There wasn’t a single way to stop the ritual without bringing down the wall of force? That seems like a serious problem with the DM not a problem with the system. Or am I seeing this wrong?

Well, here's the enemy, Mind Flayer Arcanist, a standard CR 8. So whoever designed this critter said to themselves "this is a perfectly acceptable challenge for characters". I don't think creating an adventure where the Arcanist has to defend/protect a location is unreasonable. So the question you have is more "should the DM make it possible for the player characters to bypass a Wall of Force, if doing so is necessary to complete an adventure?".

And I've noticed there's two schools of thought about this when it comes to D&D.

The first is, yes, of course, the game needs to be adjusted to suit the players. If your Fighter chooses to use a pike as his weapon, the DM should let him find a magical pike. If your Sorcerer exclusively uses cold spells, the DM shouldn't use enemies immune to cold. If the enemy has a Wall of Force prepared, a way to defeat it must exist in the adventure.

The second is, the world is the world, and if the players can't adapt, that's too bad. Thus no magic pikes exist. Cold immune enemies exist where they should exist. Can't bypass a Wall of Force? Better luck next time.

I've seen people claim on these forums that they are firmly in one camp or the other. Can we objectively say that one group is right and the other is wrong?

 

[Hussar]

Would a better question not be: Considering the effectiveness of Wall of Force, why don’t nearly all 7th+ level casters have it and use it?

 

[Emberashh]

Should a Fighter be able to do so, such as emulating Hulk?

In LNO, Warriors have as part of their base abilities a series of unique Siege equipment that they can carry on their person.

Among these is a miniaturized catapult, which with some rope is explicitly called out as being able to fling an entire person across such chasms. And thats just a basic capability; crafted versions that incorporate higher tier materials can do more.

Don't need to get in the weeds trying tk circumvent the Magic tax to incorporate such capabilities.

 

[Minigiant]

Would a better question not be: Considering the effectiveness of Wall of Force, why don’t nearly all 7th+ level casters have it and use it?

Because D&D was designed around warriors' magic weapons and armor and mage's magic spell being either randomly chosen or curated by DM.

Divine (and Primal) casters were designed around the concept that their spells are weaker, niche, or better suited to be casted on others. Thieves/Rogues (And other Experts) were supposed to be treasure neutral as they originally wee not damage dealers and gained usefulness from their original skill features.

The Disparity was created when:

1. WOTC let Arcane casters choose most of their own spells
2. WOTC made strong Divine spells.
3. WOTC made strong caster magic items enter play earlier