DND would be a lot more interesting if it embraced the Dying Earth magic system more deliberately. So much design fodder in there to build classes around.
D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.
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DND would be a lot more interesting if it embraced the Dying Earth magic system more deliberately. So much design fodder in there to build classes around.
Gammadoodler
Hero
In the interest of 'going somewhere' and accidentally circling back to the OP, let's catalog the pieces of kit that martials need. Here's what I see from a combat perspective.
1. Obstacle resolution or "Over/under/around/through/across" powers -
Thick walls, moats, chasms, and long distances are obstacles which currently flummox most martials from level 1-20. These obstacles are often directly addressable with spellcasting, frequently using spell slots that have less and less competing demand on their use.
Martials should have more means to traverse these obstacles, whether by being faster, being able to fly, jump, climb, burrow or being really good at breaking things.
2. Horde mitigation -
Even at the highest levels, the easiest way to challenge martial in a combat encounter is just to add more enemies even super low level ones. Casters have a range of tools to deal with these with options they can tailor to the level and nature of the threat they encounter.
Martials should have some greater capacity to affect multiple targets beyond their single attacks.
3. Condition application -
Many of the conditions listed in the PHB are frequently direct results from real-world combat. Casters have a wide variety of conditions they can inflict. Martials can inflict one or two of them
Martials should have some greater capacity to inflict things like, blinded, deafened, paralyzed, and poisoned on their foes.
What do you think?
1. Obstacle resolution or "Over/under/around/through/across" powers -
Thick walls, moats, chasms, and long distances are obstacles which currently flummox most martials from level 1-20. These obstacles are often directly addressable with spellcasting, frequently using spell slots that have less and less competing demand on their use.
Martials should have more means to traverse these obstacles, whether by being faster, being able to fly, jump, climb, burrow or being really good at breaking things.
2. Horde mitigation -
Even at the highest levels, the easiest way to challenge martial in a combat encounter is just to add more enemies even super low level ones. Casters have a range of tools to deal with these with options they can tailor to the level and nature of the threat they encounter.
Martials should have some greater capacity to affect multiple targets beyond their single attacks.
3. Condition application -
Many of the conditions listed in the PHB are frequently direct results from real-world combat. Casters have a wide variety of conditions they can inflict. Martials can inflict one or two of them
Martials should have some greater capacity to inflict things like, blinded, deafened, paralyzed, and poisoned on their foes.
What do you think?
Chaosmancer
Legend
Okay, if you had just said "strength 25 with medium creature size isn't strong enough with the current rules" I would have agreed. Instead you kept trying to make some categories about inhumans and superhumans and then decide that this thing is superhuman and that thing is merely human, and I never got you actual point.
Lifting between 375 lbs and 750 lbs with a 25 strength character isn't enough. But, also, lifting rules aren't good enough for even ogres and giants. So, my solution was to fix the lifting rules.
I posted it in my compilation, but by working with exponents instead, my system would give a fighter with 25 strength the ability to lift between 625 and 1250 lbs without a check, and DC 20 check would give them 2500 lbs. Which I feel is closer to what we want.
Instead of trying to figure out some sort of categorization system to determine what we want to call things, just work on fixing the issue. We don't need to figure out what limits martials are exceeding with lift capacity, because every other aspect of strength doesn't care about that. It is a single subsystem divorced from the rest of the ability score. Instead you just need to know how much stuff weighs, and get the fighter capable of moving the things you want them to move.
You see I put no value on a wizard casting Teleport or a Cleric casting remove curse, the player just apply a feature from his character sheet.
I don’t see those action more valuable, clever, or a sign of better play than requiring external help to do the same thing.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
No, actually the Monk player is always asking if I need money because they have really nothing to spend it on. It is a fair point, keeping your caster in spells should probably be a group thing, but I've never played that way. For example, I gave the Cleric most of my money to get them their Full Plate as soon as possible, and I haven't asked for any of it back.
I also spent money to buy 7 potions of healing from an NPC contact I have to divvy them up amongst the party. I'm the kind of person who doesn't care if treasure is equally divided, as long as the end goal is the best for the group.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
IF the DM makes those available, and IF you have time to seek these things out. In the middle of an adventure, however, magic is, by default, the primary solution. The DMG, last I checked, doesn't say "make sure your players can steal a flying ship", lol.
As for curses, it depends on the curse. There are fun curses. And then there are ones that give you a 50% chance to do nothing on your turn, or cause you to waste away to nothing.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
No, not invalid, but it's not the default the game assumes. The game assumes players will have access to magic via spellcasting. The DM has to decide if spellcasting services or alternatives will be available at a given point.* Now, the DM should be doing these things, in my opinion, but not everyone feels the same way.
*Just because the rulebooks give spellcasting services a cost doesn't mean there is a spellcaster able to provide said services at a moment's notice in every location.
What the argument is at this point, is a bit muddled, I think. But I don't think anyone here is willing to say "there's no problem with noncasters because they can always buy/steal/find magical assistance". Naturally, being the internet, I expect a couple posts to follow people saying exactly that. : )
One of the best rules of thumb for adventure writing is that if the players are to have no choices but ride the rail, the adventure gives them their choice of Train.
Plus, such in-adventure detours when you build them in also help with that pesky Adventuring day problem. Having to detour to find the Thingamajig that the BBEG uses to keep that Wall of Force going is fodder to further depress the parties resources.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
So a player having the foresight to deal with a problem rather than going "oh no, I need outside help!" isn't good play?
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