D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[TheSword]

Addressed it in the edit..repeatable effect per round for the 10 minute duration. 100 chances to inflict it.

Lucky the 1 ship survived.

Not so, the ship is carried across the area of the spell. It’s not in the area in the next round. You can’t get the effect every round.

Bearing in mind that only works at all of these are rowboats. I’m not a sailor but I’ve never called a rowboat a ship.

 

[Gammadoodler]

The spell specifically says the water slowly rises when the spell ends…

Sure. I didn't say that was the way the ships were destroyed.

That said, have you seen a boat on land? Do they generally seem pretty well balanced? Do you see a lot of seaworthy tipped-over boats?

 

[TheSword]

Sure. I didn't say that was the way the ships were destroyed.

That said, have you seen a boat on land? Do they generally seem pretty well balanced? Do you see a lot of seaworthy tipped-over boats?

Why would it tip over. I’ve seen lots of boats on dry land. They lean to one side on the keel. Probably on something like a 45 degree angle. Control water doesn’t drop the ship from a height.

That’s the really interesting thing about these discussion. People expect spells to do things that they don’t actually do and permissive DMs (or DMs that don’t fully understand the spells) let them get away with it.

I genuinely am interested in now @Chaosmancer destroyed a ship with a wall of fire and three ships with control water.

Even more interested in why the pirates didn’t target the druid bobbing up and down in the water.

 

[Emberashh]

Its weird to give an effect a flat percentage chance of occurrence but no explicit way to determine it. Id assume 1d4, 1s = capsize, but still.

Even magic it seems isn't immune from not having things spelled out properly.

 

[HammerMan]

The spell specifically says the water slowly rises when the spell ends…

Yeah I mean I guess we can all envision it different but I can’t imagine a 100ft trench opening under my ship to the sea floor ends well for the ship.
If it gets the whole boat it hits bottom and rumps on it side
If it gets the front or back but not both it just tips and is done

The water flowing in slowly instead of crashing makes me imagine it being survivable if you get out of the wreck before the water gets too high though.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Not so, the ship is carried across the area of the spell. It’s not in the area in the next round. You can’t get the effect every round.

Bearing in mind that only works at all of these are rowboats. I’m not a sailor but I’ve never called a rowboat a ship.

Bit of column A bit of column B. The effect pushes the boats out and repeats, so if they re-enter it, they get hit again.

It's not my encounter, I don't know the details, but the incredulity regarding the effectiveness of the spell seems, to me, out of scale with the effects the spell is designed to achieve.

Capsizing ships is one of the things it is designed to do. That it was able to do this should not be surprising.

 

[HammerMan]

Its weird to give an effect a flat percentage chance of occurrence but no explicit way to determine it. Id assume 1d4, 1s = capsize, but still.

Even magic it seems isn't immune from not having things spelled out properly.

Yeah is that a d4 or 2 numbers on a d8 or %dice?

 

[Vaalingrade]

I remember reading the forewords of the 1ed DMG a few years ago.
all I remember is how enthusiasm was Gygax about the game and the experience of fantasy.

Gygax, who gave the fighter a freaking army and a castle while punishing mages relentlessly for their choice to play a mage.

Is the fun buried under a pile of concerns about balance and casters superiority?

It's been buried under caster superiority veiled behind simplicity and verisimilitude.

 

[Chaosmancer]

We must play at very different tables. I cannot think of a time when I DM'ed or others DMed and allowed for a single use solution that only a wizard could solve. The designers did not cast out the martial or pull up the ladder on them. They looked at and applied the martial tropes people have for each class (especially modern-day cinema), and then tried to build a class around them. Old school tropes like Conan and Lancelot and Aragorn are in there. In books, Forgotten Realm's characters like Drizzt and Wulfgar are in there. Newer cinema versions like Cap'n Jack Sparrow and John Snow. Female tropes are in there too: Katniss Evergreen, Brienne of Tarth, Arya Stark, Xena the Warrior Princess, Holga... The list goes on and on. And they did a pretty good job at letting people create their characters in a resemblance fashion. To say otherwise seems shortsighted.

On a different note, I guess there is another solution, or at least, thought experiment. They could try to make the wizard just like they want it, but only at higher levels. The low-level wizards would not be nearly as strong as martials, and as they progressed, they would be equal, and then eventually surpass. It definitely holds true to the old character tropes.

You know... most of those martial tropes are low level characters, right? Like, we have this discussion every single time.

Jack Sparrow, John Snow, Katniss, Brienne, Arya, Holga, Aragorn... they are all around level 5 at best. Holga is literally level 5.

You think Lancelot is accurately represented in DnD 5e? Lancelot once hit Gawain so hard that the horse Gawain was riding was flipped onto its back. He snapped the neck of two dragons. He was so fast he defeated 12 knights before they could even draw their weapons. He killed four men with a single thrust of his lance, and defeated one of the great enemies of the kingdom half-armored, with a hand literally tied behind his back. He struck such fear into an army that they fled from him alone.

None of this is possible in DnD for a martial character.

Look, I know all of these characters inspire us to want to make and play fighters and other warriors, but DnD fighters are supposed to scale FAR higher than what these characters are usually capable of. There should be more mid-level fighters like Lancelot, but even he wouldn't have been able to slay a multiversal dragon that ate a god. And a 20th level fighter IS.

 

[Emberashh]

It's been buried under caster superiority veiled behind simplicity and verisimilitude

Were the toxic caster players i talked about ages ago the Devs all along?