D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

WOTC is denying it either way. We're no closer to a mythic martial than we are a caster overhaul.

But there is the argument that Casters as they are aren't what the game needs (nevermind more of), so if we were to assume we were getting such substantive changes to the system, then theres debate to be had over what to set as the baseline to revolve those substantive changes around.

I and others obviously think the Martials are, if not at the ideal baseline, at least closer to what it ought to be than Casters are.

Thats ultimately something I don't think many have touched on. Does everyone still posting here actually want busted demigod Casters?

Some I think may well be taking their existence as granted when thats probably not the ideal place to discuss this, despite what any practical observations of WOTCs own preferences might suggest.

I agree with you and want a full overhaul of magic. That said, it isn't at all equivalent. Full overhaul of magic and casters is a huge endeavor that won't happen until 6e if at all, whereas adding a seperate mythic martial class in an optional spatbook seems like a much easier lift.

I agree this is not an ideal solution. But at least you can have demigod martial hanging out with the demigod caster. High level might still be broken but at least you have all players participating in this gonzo brokeness to some degree.

So yes, I'm with you fighting the fight to get magic to a better place but in the meantime just add the dmn mythic martial.

 

[Pedantic]

I think the key bit to remember is what sets a shadow monk apart from the regular monk is its supernatural abilities. Three out of the four abilities a shadow monk gets are magical, one is outright spellcasting! Invisibility, teleport, illusion magic and free OA: a rogue wishes it could do all that. And there is a narrative reason for it; the monk is tapping into the power of shadow mixed with ki.

Supernatural power + supernatural power source = fun, effective noncaster class.

Now I'm sure someone will point out the way of shadow monk isn't necessary and we could just give monks teleport, invisibility and opportunist as core features after 11th level. They don't need to be shadow powers, in fact they don't need to be explained at all. But I find that mixture of story (a monk who learns to manipulate shadow) and mechanics is what makes them exciting.

The thing is, this could just be the rogue. You could just say "rogues learn to manipulate shadows as they transcend normal, basic thief stuff" at higher levels. A lot of problems are solved if you just don't print a mundane fighter class in the first place.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The thing is, this could just be the rogue. You could just say "rogues learn to manipulate shadows as they transcend normal, basic thief stuff" at higher levels. A lot of problems are solved if you just don't print a mundane fighter class in the first place.

That ship sailed a long, long time ago.

 

[Remathilis]

The thing is, this could just be the rogue. You could just say "rogues learn to manipulate shadows as they transcend normal, basic thief stuff" at higher levels. A lot of problems are solved if you just don't print a mundane fighter class in the first place.

Correct!

If the rogue is a class that is billed around "manipulation of the supernatural forces of shadow, luck, fate and skill" you can justify all kinds of stuff like this. Yet we keep forcing him into two boxes: "he's not magical and cannot do cool things" or "he's not magical but he gets to do cool things because I say so".

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Correct!

If the rogue is a class that is billed around "manipulation of the supernatural forces of shadow, luck, fate and skill" you can justify all kinds of stuff like this. Yet we keep forcing him into two boxes: "he's not magical and cannot do cool things" or "he's not magical but he gets to do cool things because I say so".

Yep, and I see no issues with limiting the overtly supernatural stuff to say 7th/8th level and above so that you can play a "mundaney martial" game until 6th/7th level. Seems like the best of both worlds.

 

[Emberashh]

I agree with you and want a full overhaul of magic. That said, it isn't at all equivalent. Full overhaul of magic and casters is a huge endeavor that won't happen until 6e if at all, whereas adding a seperate mythic martial class in an optional spatbook seems like a much easier lift.

I agree this is not an ideal solution. But at least you can have demigod martial hanging out with the demigod caster. High level might still be broken but at least you have all players participating in this gonzo brokeness to some degree.

So yes, I'm with you fighting the fight to get magic to a better place but in the meantime just add the dmn mythic martial.

We haven't even gotten to the whole "Paladins and Rangers are mythic martials" argument in this topic yet, which is surprising to say the least.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Very much this.

I don't think I've ever seen a D&D player express thematic angst over getting a cool ability to use.

Yep.

"I can choose a sonic thunderclap area attack at 15th level that can stun monsters and crumble walls? No way man, I real person couldn't do that"

"This isn't a real person. You are a mythic martial with some kind of fantastic background."

"But I want to play a regular guy. "

"Sure, there's an option to take your abilities as class magic items."

"Waaaaay to gamey for me."

"Ok, there's the Fighter/champion you could play...."

"Awesome!"

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

We haven't even gotten to the whole "Paladins and Rangers are mythic martials" argument in this topic yet, which is surprising to say the least.

Yes, I particularly love that stance.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I think the key bit to remember is what sets a shadow monk apart from the regular monk is its supernatural abilities. Three out of the four abilities a shadow monk gets are magical, one is outright spellcasting! Invisibility, teleport, illusion magic and free OA: a rogue wishes it could do all that. And there is a narrative reason for it; the monk is tapping into the power of shadow mixed with ki.

Supernatural power + supernatural power source = fun, effective noncaster class.

Now I'm sure someone will point out the way of shadow monk isn't necessary and we could just give monks teleport, invisibility and opportunist as core features after 11th level. They don't need to be shadow powers, in fact they don't need to be explained at all. But I find that mixture of story (a monk who learns to manipulate shadow) and mechanics is what makes them exciting.

Ennhh. The vanilla monk is pretty damn supernatural kinda generally. Hell one of the worst regarded subclasses (four elements) gets the most direct spellcasting.

For me personally, what made the shadow monk fun was the stuff I could do with it. Run up a castle wall, cast silence on some guards below, drop (or teleport) in, take them out with fists of fury, and then bamf away.

I never once cared about how much more or less 'magical' my character was. I enjoyed the tools it provided to engage with the challenges placed in front of me.

Perhaps I am an exception in this perspective (but I don't think so).

 

[Pedantic]

Yep, and I see no issues with limiting the overtly supernatural stuff to say 7th/8th level and above so that you can play a "mundaney martial" game until 6th/7th level. Seems like the best of both worlds.

If we could do a ground up redesign, I'd harken back to something like BECMI mashed up with Prestige classes/paragon paths, and specifically tier classes. You have a starter set of adventurer classes that run from say, levels 1-5 or 1-10, depending how far you want to drag out the tier. Then, when your fighter (or whatever) reaches the next tier, their picking from a set of new archetypes for their next class, something like "Holy Knight," "Bear Warrior," "Blademaster" etc, which is where you bolt on an appropriate power source for the level range.

There's a huge upside to this model for DMs as well, because the game can be much more explicit about where specific narratives/opposition/challenges fit inside the level range. Boat adventures, for example, might only work when characters can't routinely fly or teleport long distances, and thus belong in the 1st tier.

I was pushing for a model like this back in the initial 5e playtests, when "modularity" was the watchword of the day, with the idea that you could provide expansion material designed specifically for each given tier. Sort of like the old "E6" mod to PF1/3.5 expanded to a formal game structure.