D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Chaosmancer]

There is no reason martial abilities can't break the action economy. In fact, that would be a cool differentiator btw martial and caster.

You spin and jump around like a devil and make one attack against every target within 30 feet, at the end you end up next to the last target you attack. This does not use a move action. Roll 1d6 for each target hit-- the target must make a save or be 1-2 blinded, 3-4 dazed, 5-6 stunned

You use a a combination of feints, grabs, taunts, whatever. Every enemy within 30 feet of you ends up to you and you make an attack on each. {this is come and get it but if taunting doesn't make sense in the narrative you just grab that wizard and yank him over)

You do whatever action hero like move you need to move from point A to point B within 120 feet if at all remotely possible. The DM may alter the narrative to make this so if needed -- the dragon swoops down at just the right time for you to bounce off its head, the tree branch breaks but momentum send you closer to another branch to swing off of, you smash through a number of enemies on the way over, etc. {this is a poor man's dimension door but would still be pretty good compared to today!}

I can see how to do this with the system I made, though as designed it would be a high level attempt for the first two.

I'm not sure how to quantify the dimension door, but I do have ways to improvise in specific situations, if something doesn't fit into the more structured Combat Arts I did design.

One of them (it is a 13th level art) allows for a fighter to teleport 20 ft, attacking any number of creatures within 5 ft of the line of that teleport... as an attack, so a fighter could potentially end up teleporting 80 ft and making multiple attacks during it. I did make a stipulation that there has to be a valid attack target along the path though. No teleporting up to a balcony (though they don't need it with the new jump rules)

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Irs the easiest way for them to do high level.

One shots and Mega Dungeons are High Level on easy mode.

But neither are proper high level campaigns because they ignore everything high level.

One Shots remove stakes.
Mega Dungeons remove freedom.

It's the restaurant equivalent of saying they have vegan opinions by putting a salad, a packaged veggie burger, and french fries on the menu.

To be fair not sure that many people do high level well including Pathfinder 2e which has the system to probably pull it off but some of the higher level AP books fall a little flat.

Zeitgeist is a good one. The ending books feel really different than the beginning books. There are huge stakes. There are battles but less frequent and always with a plot purpose (as is true throughout the AP).

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I can see how to do this with the system I made, though as designed it would be a high level attempt for the first two.

I'm not sure how to quantify the dimension door, but I do have ways to improvise in specific situations, if something doesn't fit into the more structured Combat Arts I did design.

One of them (it is a 13th level art) allows for a fighter to teleport 20 ft, attacking any number of creatures within 5 ft of the line of that teleport... as an attack, so a fighter could potentially end up teleporting 80 ft and making multiple attacks during it. I did make a stipulation that there has to be a valid attack target along the path though. No teleporting up to a balcony (though they don't need it with the new jump rules)

Teleporting could be ok depending on certain background, but I don't see why they can't just move, jump, swing, smash objects, etc. and attack? No reason the attack action couldn't include a bunch of abstract movement.

It's not really dimension door -- it's just narrative permission (and more limited permission) to move from A to B within 120ft bypassing any obstactles with cool martial stuff that doesn't need to be specified before hand.

 

[Yaarel]

It's not really dimension door -- it's just narrative permission (and more limited permission) to move from A to B within 120ft bypassing any obstactles with cool martial stuff that doesn't need to be specified before hand.

Yeah, when a Martial "teleports" sotospeak, it isnt "line of sight", it is more like space of movement.

Something like saying the Martial evades (or even is immune to) being targeted until arriving at the intended destination.

 

[Minigiant]

To be fair not sure that many people do high level well including Pathfinder 2e which has the system to probably pull it off but some of the higher level AP books fall a little flat.

Zeitgeist is a good one. The ending books feel really different than the beginning books. There are huge stakes. There are battles but less frequent and always with a plot purpose (as is true throughout the AP).

My point from the first dozens of pages is D&D doesn't even know what high level is.

And WOTC refuses to take a stand.

So all they can produce for high levels is Mega Dungeons which restrict or remove the strengths of high level magic spells and items or One Shots on a Time Clock where the effects of high level magic spells and items are lower impact as it's only one day and one game with a few scenes.

 

[Yaarel]

There is no reason martial abilities can't break the action economy. In fact, that would be a cool differentiator btw martial and caster.

You spin and jump around like a devil and make one attack against every target within 30 feet, at the end you end up next to the last target you attack. This does not use a move action. Roll 1d6 for each target hit-- the target must make a save or be 1-2 blinded, 3-4 dazed, 5-6 stunned

You use a a combination of feints, grabs, taunts, whatever. Every enemy within 30 feet of you ends up to you and you make an attack on each. {this is come and get it but if taunting doesn't make sense in the narrative you just grab that wizard and yank him over)

You do whatever action hero like move you need to move from point A to point B within 120 feet if at all remotely possible. The DM may alter the narrative to make this so if needed -- the dragon swoops down at just the right time for you to bounce off its head, the tree branch breaks but momentum send you closer to another branch to swing off of, you smash through a number of enemies on the way over, etc. {this is a poor man's dimension door but would still be pretty good compared to today!}

In my view, the difficulty for the Fighter is noncombat. To some degree, this relates to a lack of utility that can bypass certain impossible combat situations.

I dont think the Fighter needs to deal more damage.

Inflicting conditions or area-of-effects − sure − why not? But this isnt part of the balance problem that the Fighter deals with at the highest tiers.

 

[Yaarel]

With regard to caster balance, it is mostly spot-checking specific spells.

Importantly, this requires revamping every slot, to ensure that every spell corresponds to the expected amount of power for that slot.

The 5e spells need a combing.

When spells like Wish and Forcecage are obviously better than other spells in the same slot, there needs to be a correction. Either nerf the spell or promote the spell to a higher slot, where it can be more comparable to other spells in the same slot.

(Wish kinda does feel "epic" and works better as an Epic Boon. Forcecage seems full-on broken because it pretty much ends the game for the reallife player of a Fighter character.)

The opposite is also true. Every crappy spell needs either a boost or demotion to a lower slot where it can be more comparable to fellow slot spells.

There needs to be a very clear understanding about how much power each slot level must have − especially for the highest tiers!

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

In my view, the difficulty for the Fighter is noncombat. To some degree, this relates to a lack of utility that can bypass certain impossible combat situations.

I dont think the Fighter needs to deal more damage.

Inflicting conditions or area-of-effects − sure − why not? But this isnt part of the balance problem that the Fighter deals with at the highest tiers.

That's more part of the fun options side then raw power but think it's still important. Conditions and movement denial, AoE, etc. should be part of their toolkit. And there should be fun options as well that speak to being a mythic warrior at high level instead of just attack hard.

But agree non combat and some situational combat is even worse. What are some of the combat and non combat situations that high level martials should be able to contribute through class abilities (not through the vague skill system that anyone can use, DM fiat, etc)?

-- flyier enemy -- should be able to ground the flier or do a damaging ranged attack even if strength focused (why not, ehh?). Could have grounding attacks, able to pick up large objects and throw, sonic clap, super jumps, etc

-- barriers -- should be able to break through/circumvent barriers even magical ones. Break through, super jump, smash and climb making own handholds

-- movement -- should be able to get to hard to reach places without real world climbing restrictions and 10x checks. super jump? narrative control?

-- social -- in typical fantasy warrior types often have a lot of face abilities -- respect or infamy. how to represent that?

-- tactical acumen. often the warrior is a more seasoned battler. how to represent that?

-- leader. often the warrior is the leader in fantasy not the spellcaster. how to represent making the team better, both on and off the battle field? Keeping morale up and the team together.

-- heart and sole. often the martial is the "resistor" of corruption, magic, etc. How to represent that?

what else?

 

[Yaarel]

Depends on what you mean by "active magic" because per Sage Advice only explicitly magical ki effects are suppressed. And boy is that a can of worms. After all, we might agree that a Four Elements Monk using Burning Hands is suppressed, but the Shadow Monk teleport ability is not explicitly magical. So they should be able to teleport.

Shooting a radiant bolt? Well, it says magic so sun soul is suppressed.

Healing and inflicting wound with a touch? No mention of magic so Mercy Monks are good to go. In fact, you can even raise the dead in an anti-magic field.

Astral Self? Non-magical, go ahead and summon your soul to fight for you

Ascendant Dragon? Punch flames just like the Four Elements monk, but non-magically, so its allowed. So is summoning your spectral wings.

And this is why Anti-magic is STUPID. It breaks so much of the game and the only reason it exists is to tell casters no so there is some hope martial characters can have a cool moment occassionally.

No disagreement.

Judging by how Fizbanes and UA explicitly describe the draconic breathweapon as "magical", unlike the 2014, it seems 2025 will clarify the murkiness of what is or isnt magical.

2014 describes "ki" as "magical", thus any effect that spends "ki" points is magical.


Perhaps a clarification is the "soul" itself is nonmagical but can be a source for magical effects. The "soul" then includes the "mind", the "spirit" (≈ self), and the "aura" (≈ ki, lifeforce). Each of these aspects of the soul is nonmagical but can exert magical effects.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

With regard to caster balance, it is mostly spot-checking specific spells.

Importantly, this requires revamping every slot, to ensure that every spell corresponds to the expected amount of power for that slot.

The 5e spells need a combing.

I think it's a breadth issue equally.

Imagine if

Wizard -- each wizard can do mostly AoE damage spells and only ONE of the following 1) battle field control, 2) movement/travel, 3) divination, 4) charm/dominate, etc.

Druid -- ok warrior, survival stuff and travel spells only, limited use shape change so can be an excellent warrior or scout a few times a day. No direct damage or control spells.

Much easier to balance against I would think and the lack of breadth opens up other space for others to shine.