D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Yaarel]

1. Your first statement isn't true.

2. If you are willing to ascribe every fantastical effect to 'magic' and then refuse to give fighters any magic, of course there will be problems in giving the fighter fantastical abilities.

3. You could just decide not to do this.

I want the Fighters to have magic.

Others want the Fighter to be strictly nonmagic and defacto low tiers.

This thread is about figuring out ways for the Fighter to function and even flourish at the high tiers.

It seems to me, the Fighter must have defacto magic at the highest tiers, in order to flourish. This is the magic of mythic warriors, superheroes, and wuxia. Perhaps it is the magic of a soul expressed thru a physical body, perhaps it is advanced technology, perhaps it is something else, but it is magic by whatever name.

At the same time, the narrative that describes this magic must satisfy 70% or more of all D&D players.

Sometimes supplying magic in ways that minimally antagonize the nonmagic advocates is threading the needle.

I know from 4e, that a failure to supply a satisfactory default narrative can factor into the failure of the game.

The default narrative must be coherent and plausible enough to provide a narrative premise and to allow for the suspension of disbelief.

 

[Gammadoodler]

A thought on reducing the power and appeal of spellcasters.

Make them stinky, and generally unsanitary to be around.

Like, consider how much bat guano, chemicals, and random body parts they are just kind of carrying around. A materials pouch is functionally equivalent to a discarded trash bag. And casters enthusiastically smear whole globs of that garbage directly on their hands.

...And they're willing to eat with these hands.

It's disgusting when you think of it. Like, who wants to share a sandwich, a bed or a bath with someone who regularly slathers trash all over themselves.

Maybe we could get some new rules for this..

After casting a spell, if you consume a meal before washing your hands, take xd4 poison damage you filthy animal..

..or something

 

[Gammadoodler]

The default narrative must be coherent and plausible enough to provide a narrative premise and to allow for the suspension of disbelief.

Suspension of disbelief is the responsibility of the players at the table who..by the way..have gathered together to play a fantasy game where they descend into fantasy Dungeons to fight fantasy Dragons.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Then make casters justify their magic on a spell by spell basis by these same pseudoscientific narrative standards. Should make for quality entertainment.

Perhaps casters are pulling in energy, matter, and physics changes from other planes when they cast a spell.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Suspension of disbelief is the responsibility of the players at the table who..by the way..have gathered together to play a fantasy game where they descend into fantasy Dungeons to fight fantasy Dragons.

if they can believe in dragons and giants and tarrasks and liches but not that the fighter can do incredible things without being magic then i don't know what to tell them

 

[Yaarel]

Suspension of disbelief is the responsibility of the players at the table who..by the way..have gathered together to play a fantasy game where they descend into fantasy Dungeons to fight fantasy Dragons.

4e designers assumed people would create their own narratives to explain the mechanics.

One of the strengths of 4e is, it is designed so that the narrative had little or no impact on the mechanics. It was easy to reflavor 4e in any way. This customizability of flavor allowed so many character concepts that are difficult or impossible in other editions.

Unfortunately, there were a few places where the default narrative was less satisfying. Many players had no interest in authoring their own flavor to explain the mechanics. They considered it the job of the designers to this. This dissatisfaction was corrosive to longterm of 4e.

Narrative matters.

 

[Scott Christian]

Seriously? Did you even understand my point or did you just feel like a strawman for your convenient excuses was needed?

Do you know how many times I've been told that the solution to the lack of martial utility is feats? Do you know how many times martial damage has been decried as unrealistic due to a lack of feats? Heck, I've been told a core part of the fighter identity is that they get more feats.

Yet pointing that out as a problem with a potential solution requiring the taking zero feats is somehow an example of me wanting nothing but to be a dirty powergamer who can't be honest?

I suspected you haven't been arguing in good faith, but seriously, this takes the cake. If you hate the idea of changing the status quo, why even participate in the discussion?

There is no strawman, and you know it.

Again, I have no problem if you give and take. Remove the "ability score improvement/take a feat" that fighters get more of than any other class, and plug in class abilities. I'll start, at sixth level, you can sacrifice your "ability score improvement" and instead take the reverse weapon ability. On a successful attack against you, you can use the backside of any melee weapon to block and have the opponent reroll or you can use the backside of your weapon to make an attack of opportunity. You may use this ability once every round.

Or, here is another one that gets to the core of the problem:

At sixth level, you can sacrifice your "ability score improvement" and instead take the strength is king ability. This ability to allows you to replace your strength ability with any one other ability used in skill checks. For example, you can replace all skill checks that require wisdom with strength. (So your animal handling could be through your ability to control the animal, your perception could be because you you move things around, your insight could be simply flexing and watching reactions, etc.)

There you go. An idea.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So no, there isn't anything wrong with the multiple explanations for martial power that allows them to do extraordinary feats beyond human limits. Therefore, the next time someone demands to know how we justify it, we can just tell them to go back and read any of the many examples we've given. Bonus points, none of them are exclusive and it can be all of them at once.

But you have to put something in the book, like what is done for casters (particularly in the subclass sections). Sorcerers, for example, have a vague core explanation that is expanded upon in the subclasses. Warlocks too. That's what I'm asking for. At least make it  look like the class is there for reasons beyond jealousy of the casters. Supernatural things need an explanation in the book, somewhere.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I said, it has to appeal to at least 70% of ALL D&D players.

By appeal, I mean most players either love it or can tolerate it.

Right, but you started with talking about you. What if the story we like DOES appeal to 70% of all DnD players, but not to you? Are we allowed to move forward with that story then? Because we've given example after example of things we like and can tolerate, but you keep pushing for something else because YOU don't like it and can't tolerate it.

With me, there is no need for sarcasm. I can follow reasonable arguments reasonably.

In those shows, the forcefields require an energy source to maintain, which stress can exhaust. Generally, the entire forcefield fails if running out of energy.

Something along this narrative can be thought thru and offered for the narrative of the game.

And why can't that work for a spell effect being concentrated on by a spellcaster? Why can't accrued damage break the amount of energy put into the spell to maintain it from a 5th level slot? Doesn't that represent an energy source maintaining the effect and stress exhausting it?

 

[Yaarel]

Perhaps casters are pulling in energy, matter, and physics changes from other planes when they cast a spell.

My own D&D settings are evolving toward the following theory of magic.

The multiverse has three main levels: astral-mind, ethereal-spirit, and material-lifeforce. The soul is a microcosm of these three levels.

The universe originated as an astral "thought", that created ethereal "force", to form material "matter".

Magic is the soul participating in this creative process.

There is more to it, but that is the gist.

The upshot is: the "ether" of the Ethereal Plane is the same thing as the "Weave". The ether is a force that a mind can manipulate and shape into force constructs that are made out of "magical energy", and can even convolute into enduring matter. Meanwhile, the Astral Plane maintains a virtual weave, where thought constructs can behave as if ethereal force or as if material matter.