D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Might means nothing. Data means something.

Exactly. Don't read into this one set of data things you can't.

All it tells us is that more people play Fighters today.

It says nothing about the whether people play Fighter at high levels.
It says nothing about whether people would prefer a mythic martial vs. the current Fighter.

You know, a lot of what we are discussing on this thread.

You need more data to say this.

 

[Clint_L]

Minimal gear? Do you think that there is some gear you could give them that would let them get through that fight with more than 70% of their hit points?

Ummm...yeah? Level 20? Sword and board fighter? Let's give them AC 26 and a +3 weapon. Yup, that does it. Easily - they finish with 81% health and could pretty much top themselves off with a second wind except that is dirty, dirty cheating, apparently. (It would probably be higher because now they are killing an extra Orog every few rounds but, meh).

Actually, I feel like I didn't put nearly enough thought into this, so let's take it up a notch. Okay, so right now, they have +2 plate, +3 shield, +3 longsword. That's pretty vanilla. Let's add a cloak of displacement. Now they will suffer 16 HP damage, total, in approximately 1/6th of the fights, or an average of 2.67 damage (actually slightly higher if we add in the vanishingly small chance of more than one orog hitting double natural 20s, but eh). Oh, and that +3 longsword is now blackrazor, so the fighter can haste themselves and gain 46 temp HP every round. At this point, they can just stand in the middle of the room and kill infinite orogs. That might get boring, so at some point they swap the longsword for the flail of Tiamat to take out waves of the orogs at once.

I've barely scratched the surface. Suffice to say that once we allow significant magic into the equation, this fight is probably not worth playing - just tell the fighter they kill the orogs, it takes about 30 seconds, and move on.

 

[nevin]

I have seen the complaints from Fighter players ever since I learned to play D&D.

But when I am player, I almost always play some form of fullcaster.

However, I "noticed" or rather understood the problem when carefully discerning which spell is more powerful than which other spell. I got a decent sense of spells in the highest tiers, and what they do − and what they should be doing at those high tiers.

That is when I realized, Fighter mechanics arent even in the game.

Fighters are all about evading damage, taking damage, and dealing damage during a combat encounter. But they often have little or no competence to deal with noncombat encounters, especially high tier challenges that normally involve heavy magic.

Many D&D games (including our own) are combat-centric. So much of the time, the Fighter contributes fully. But there are times when the adventure switches to noncombat, and the Fighter is at a loss. At some tables, most of the adventure might be noncombat.

that's a player problem. In non combat it should be player's interacting with other npc's and players. No reason a fighter shouldn't be as good at that as any other class. Unless you have a DM that wants to let the players roll chr checks for everthing instead of actually interacting. That's a whole other thread of stupidity.

 

[Incenjucar]

Monsters already have to deal with all-caster parties, so if anything making martials more like casters in versatility would simplify monster design.

 

[Morrus]

I think this post is a huge waste of times, because WotC clearly doesn't view magical dependencies as a problem and don't want to have fundamental change how the game will play between 2014 and 2024. Bickering on a quite irrelevant topic over 100 pages on a board about how WotC will change the game in next year.

Feel free not to post in it, then.

 

[Remathilis]

Maybe include it in your character's backstory?

"My first level fighter was on patrol in his town militia and got fireballed. Now when I hit 6th level, I'll have resistance to fire damage!"

 

[nevin]

Actually, I feel like I didn't put nearly enough thought into this, so let's take it up a notch. Okay, so right now, they have +2 plate, +3 shield, +3 longsword. That's pretty vanilla. Let's add a cloak of displacement. Now they will suffer 16 HP damage, total, in approximately 1/6th of the fights, or an average of 2.67 damage (actually slightly higher if we add in the vanishingly small chance of more than one orog hitting double natural 20s, but eh). Oh, and that +3 longsword is now blackrazor, so the fighter can haste themselves and gain 46 temp HP every round. At this point, they can just stand in the middle of the room and kill infinite orogs. That might get boring, so at some point they swap the longsword for the flail of Tiamat to take out wave of the orogs at once.

I've barely scratched the surface. Suffice to say that once we allow significant magic into the equation, this fight is probably not worth playing - just tell the fighter they kill the orogs, it takes about 30 seconds, and move on.

UMMM level 20 the wizard has 9th level spells.

yeah Fighter is going to be in +5 plate mail of fortitude reducing crit attacks, probably have a cloak of Displacements=, Boots of haste, at least a dozen potions, a helm of brilliance or teleportation, girdle of giant strength, mabye even some Item that gives them SR. At 20 i'd consider that about average equipment for a fighter.

 

[James Gasik]

"My first level fighter was on patrol in his town militia and got fireballed. Now when I hit 6th level, I'll have resistance to fire damage!"

It's no more or less unreasonable than the things people do to explain strange multiclasses they plan on taking.

 

[Remathilis]

It's no more or less unreasonable than the things people do to explain strange multiclasses they plan on taking.

Don't GET me started on multi-classing...

 

[Emberashh]

Monsters already have to deal with all-caster parties, so if anything making martials more like casters in versatility would simplify monster design.

All-caster parties aren't the norm, and so they aren't a big stress point in the current state of the game.