D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Emberashh]

Nobody thinks Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru are members of a special magical species.

Doesn't Star Wars go out of its way to not refer to the obviously-humans as human?

Granted I haven't watched every bit of media because I think Star Wars sucks, but of what I've seen Ive never actually heard what those obviously-humans are actually called.

I imagine theres an answer in the greater canon, but movie wise, nada afaik.

 

[Gammadoodler]

We have been told otherwise in those specific instances. If no one reverses gravity, it works like it does anywhere else.

Ok..one of those instances is the cosmological establishing of a "material plane" which is, whole cloth, a cosmological different model for reality.

So that one specific instance covers like..any of the potentially earthlike parts of the setting..and is explicitly and fundamentally different from life on earth.

We aren't calculating these differential mass of the Forgotten Realms and the objects that dwell there and distances between them to arrive at any "realistic" portrayals of gravity. We are handwaving it to avoid tedious and pointless physics exercises to arrive at basic predictable consequences of physical actions in a fantasy world.

It doesn't make real true actual narrative sense. We just do it because it makes the game easier to run.

As such, when we depart from that convention, we aren't committing any great sin, it's just the way the world works for that setting.

 

[Tonguez]

Imagine if killing a troll netted a fighter a dozen new options. Laughable right? But, an enemy wizard? You score that spellbook, which every enemy wizard has, and poof, you've got a dozen or more new options for your character. Forever.

The idea that we cannot give non-casters new options seems a bit strange since we have zero problems granting casters dozens of new options every two levels for the non-book casters, and potentially dozens of options simply for killing the right monster.

theres an idea in that.
Maybe a trait where a Fighter gets to add points for each creature they slay. Kill cr 20 worth of trolls and you get +1 v Trolls or ‘Slash and burn technique’ (+1d6 fire damage on a successful melee strike with material component being a burning torch?)

 

[Tonguez]

Doesn't Star Wars go out of its way to not refer to the obviously-humans as human?

Granted I haven't watched every bit of media because I think Star Wars sucks, but of what I've seen Ive never actually heard what those obviously-humans are actually called.

I imagine theres an answer in the greater canon, but movie wise, nada afaik.

thats Jabba the Hutt being called a Human being

its not canon but obviously the term has a very flexible meaning in a galaxy far away for canon Kid Anakin refers to himself as human during the podrace

but it has been established that Star Wars Corellion humans are not the same as Earth humans. I’ve just assumed its a case of convergent evolution and convinient translation to English-equivalent

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ok..one of those instances is the cosmological establishing of a "material plane" which is, whole cloth, a cosmological different model for reality.

So that one specific instance covers like..any of the potentially earthlike parts of the setting..and is explicitly and fundamentally different from life on earth.

We aren't calculating these differential mass of the Forgotten Realms and the objects that dwell there and distances between them to arrive at any "realistic" portrayals of gravity. We are handwaving it to avoid tedious and pointless physics exercises to arrive at basic predictable consequences of physical actions in a fantasy world.

It doesn't make real true actual narrative sense. We just do it because it makes the game easier to run.

As such, when we depart from that convention, we aren't committing any great sin, it's just the way the world works for that setting.

Never said it was a sin, just that it should be called out.

 

[Minigiant]

Here's the thing.

When D&D was created, the game was based on the idea that all normal humaniods could be fighters. But only the special could be high level fighters. Anyone with a strength higher than 8 could be a fighter. However since the game rewarded high scores and was very lethal, it was not expected for normal for them to make it to high level. Classes like Ranger and Paladin were based on supernatural humans of myth after all.

High level adventurers, especially for fighters, were not normal members of their race.

This continued with 3e, 4,and5ewere there became an official seperatio of Fighters and Rogues and of Warriors and Experts.

So there is some historic precedent that both martials and casters being above then normals of their race inherently.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Never said it was a sin, just that it should be called out.

Strong disagree.

Don't see any reason why a fantasy RPG need to remind people that it's settings are fantastical.

 

[Incenjucar]

I think it's safe to say we do not all share the same opinion of how grounded in real-life physicality D&D is.

 

[Emberashh]

I imagine for many part of the reason the gonzo doesn't mesh well with what one might consider mundane (and thus the reason the gonzo is rejected) is because of a desire and/or appreciation for meaningful mortality.

A lot of OSR games are built on these lines of being very deadly, as tends to be the case with otherwise normal humans crawling in dungeons with 10 ft poles, and in that context, the gonzo doesn't necessarily fit. Such highly powered individuals dying to the likes of stick traps and javelin throwers is a narrative disconnect.

DCC yet again does buck that trend, but it accomplishes it by way of a universal experience thats as tremendously more cruel to its inhabitants as it is enabling of the awesome.

And I think its just more evidence that, as @Micah Sweet has exhaustively argued, WOTC not supporting high level play is one of the games biggest problems.

Ostensibly the game is supposed to progress from traversing the Bubblegum Forest to crossing dimensions to seek out the Tower of Evil in the Swamps of Doom on the Island of Pain, but such things aren't really made obvious.

It should be progressing from your sharpened stick traps and acid vats as traps. High level characters should be running into gravity tears challenging their every move, esoteric puzzles left by mad mages with solutions drawn by blind clerics. Phantasmal twins of the party should be besetting them, immune to magic but just as deadly by the sword as they are vulnerable to the sword. Complex mechanisms designed by 7 armed Giants that require the party split up just to activate them in the right sequence!

And thats just off the top of my head, but none of that is obvious if you haven't spent an egregious amount of time DMing for high level parties.

It makes hella sense when you get there, and boy does the game work better when you do, but the system doesn't tell you that, nor does its supplements.

 

[Remathilis]

Strong disagree.

Don't see any reason why a fantasy RPG need to remind people that it's settings are fantastical.

But if you mess with people's assumptions, they stop believing the fantasy.

If your PCs are wandering into a village and see a stray dog on the side of the road begging for food, it's reasonable to assume it will behave like a regular dog will. If it says "thank you" or breathes fire at them, people will want to know why their assumptions were wrong. If your response is "its a fantastical setting, you shouldn't assume things are like they are on Earth", your PCs will have no frame of reference for encountering anything. Do all dogs talk? Do all trees explode in poisonous gas when cut?

One of the golden rules of storytelling is that if you change the assumptions of your world, it can't be a surprise to the audience but not the people who live in it. If your world lacks daylight, or has half the gravity of Earth, or such, that is not going to be a surprise to the characters. And in an RPG, your players are part audience and part author. They shouldn't be surprised that humans are capable of flight with practice or things.

Which is what Micah is saying; spell out your changes so that when people know when a common Earth entity differs. Or you risk players assuming they know nothing about your world and cannot make intelligent choices about it..