D&D (2024) Playtest 6 Survey is Open

[Parmandur]

Not really. When Treantmonk did his video, he compared the damage of the monk using flurry. It was STILL significanty lower (at that level) than the other classes. Which means even given infinite Ki, that problem is going to persist.

Then you have the current monk which includes planned obselesance of Weapon Mastery and a few bizzare nerfs to Open Hand, and just having enough Ki really doesn't look like any sort of real solution. It needs to be that plus other structural changes.

Flurry of Blows is worth 1/4 of a Level 1 Spell Slot, so one Divine Smite is the equivalent of 4 uses of Flurry of Blows, in terms of resources available to the respective Classes.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes. This means you're making meaningful choices, which, in my judgment and to my tastes, enhances the game. The fact that the nature of the choice depends on both the character you're playing and the situation means that it's not the same decision over and over again.

Or you can let the pcs worry about making short rests happen (more meaningful decisions- is it worth it to lose an hour?). Or you can make short rests 5 minutes, or the first one 5 minutes, or whatnot. I'll grant you that the game currently lacks good guidance about doing so, and that's worth writing in for sure.

Right, but you are getting the argument backwards, and then ignoring the problem with "meaningful choices"

Here, let me give you a very meaningful choice, right now.

Door #1 or Door #2?

Take all the time you need to consider all the advantages and disadvantages of your choice. Oh... you can't. You actually cannot make a meaningful choice in this scenario, because you lack information. It is a blind guess. If I told you door #1 had a lifetime supply of sustainably sourced fish, and Door #2 had a land permit that gives you ownership of 600 Acres in Montana... then you could make a meaningful decision. You can weigh those things, consider them.

Now, look at short rests. First off, the player cannot make meaningful decisions about their resources... because they lack information. The monk can't meaningfully decide if spending three ki is worth the cost, if they don't know their daily limit. They must assume that their daily limit is a zero short rest limit. But even short rests aren't a meaningful decision for them, because the answer is generally yes if possible. And if it isn't possible.... that's usually because OTHER players who don't need it decided it wasn't going to happen. You don't actually get to decide, unless you can convince them that your needs outweigh their lack of need. And that isn't a decision, because if you remove that... then every time you can take the rest you will, barring outside time pressures, which again, make it not a choice. It isn't a choice between "do I recover or do I die because the world imploded" that isn't a choice.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Flurry of Blows is worth 1/4 of a Level 1 Spell Slot, so one Divine Smite is the equivalent of 4 uses of Flurry of Blows, in terms of resources available to the respective Classes.

Right...

So, what happens at level 11 when Paladins get a permant +1/2 spell slot on every single attack they make forever? Does that get balanced out by the monk... in ANY possible way?

And, also, just to be fair and balanced TM, you do understand the fundamental problem with the design, right? Let's assume you are right and every divine smite dealing +2d8 damage is worth the same as the monk getting +1d6+mod (which it isn't, because the monk doesn't get a +6 modifier to their damage), the monk cannot flurry multiple times a turn.

Let's pick level 9. A paladin is going to be able to deal, in theory, 25d8, divide by half, and I'll round down, that is twelve uses of Divine Smite approximately. Which means the monk needs to use Flurry 48 times (12 x 4 = 48) [Also, this is assuming the old 2014 paladin, because an One DnD paladin gets a free 3rd level smite on top of that, meaning the monk would need about another EIGHT flurries]

Firstly, to use Flurry 48 times would require AT MINIMUM three short rests, because the monk only has 9 ki. A standard adventuring day assumes two short rests. So, we are resting more than the expected average AND using no other abilities (shockingly, paladins still have other abilities even if they use all their spells to smite). Additionally, most combats are easy to assume take about three rounds. At 48 rounds, you are looking at Eight combats, which is HIGH since most real games only have about four combats at most.

AND THEN, on top of ALL OF THAT, you have another fundamental problem. Divine Smite never misses. It is NEVER wasted. Flurry of Blows can miss. If you only hit with one of the two attacks, you might as well have not used the ki, because you gained no benefit over your normal turns.

So, again, Monks are in trouble. Yes, from levels 1 thru 4 they do good damage because of that bonus action attack. And at level 5 they can still mostly keep pace, but they fall off FAST and HARD.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes. If something doesn't receive at least 70% approval they will keep iterating until they find something that does. That is their playtest process. They have been doing it that way for over a decade, and it seem to work really well for them. It was the playtest process they used when first creating 5e, and 5e is by far the most popular version of D&D ever. If the process works why change it to focus on the complaints of a minority?

That word does not possess a definition in line with wotc's behavior. Packet 6. Has numerous clear examples and it's not even an outlier for what we have seen since 2014

 

[Parmandur]

Let's assume you are right and every divine smite dealing +2d8 damage is worth the same as the monk getting +1d6+mod

Incorrect, the Divine Smote is worth 8d6+mod. As I said, Divine Smite isna four Spell Point ability for the Leve 1 Slot Flurry of Blows costs 1 Spell Poomt for each bat h of two.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg...?

No mystery, here. They were never going to change fundamental pillars upon which the rest of the game is built. Period. It was never on the table.

It would have to have satisfaction levels under 30%, the inverse of their normal math, to change something like the basic mathematical assumptions upon which the whole game is built.

Like you can’t do that and convince anyone but the most dedicated fanatic supporters that it wasn’t 6e.

So the fact they aren’t doing it is pretty much meaningless. Even if they consider it a failed system, they’re going to patch in on the user end, not gut and replace it.

 

[Clint_L]

Mathematically, it's the same sort of resource pool as Paladins. As long as adequate Ahort Rests are available, and given a normal Adventure Day (which WotC isnmaking any changes to, which makes sense to me based on my experience), then the Monk is just fine.

I don’t see how you can look at the math on the 2024 monk and support this claim. At level 11, monks spamming Flurry of Blows are 20 points behind typical melee classes.

 

[Parmandur]

I don’t see how you can look at the math on the 2024 monk and support this claim. At level 11, monks spamming Flurry of Blows are 20 points behind typical melee classes.

First, the exact math isn't final in UA. Second, I'm skeptical of white room analysis based on years of comparing such with actual play.

 

[Clint_L]

Girst, the exact math isn't final in UA. Second, I'm skeptical of white room analysis based on years of comparing such with actual play.

We all have years of actual play, so you are discounting both math and any experience but your own.

 

[Parmandur]

We all have years of actual play, so you are discounting both math and any experience but your own.

The math requires aaaumptions that aren't shared (when I look at most white room stuff). Only my own experience is my own. I'm sure that plenty of people have had issues with Monks or Warlocks, but after years of looking at discussions, there usually seems to be some table issue wirh Ahort Rests or uaing the adventure day format (which undergirds the assumption used in the math calculations).

I'm not going to dismiss anybody experience as their experience: but on forums inoffensive becomes the case that people project their table's experience as universal, when none of us have the perspective to do that, including me.

But WotC does have the perspective to figure that out. That's how they managed to build modern D&D, and how they have managed incremental changes. I trust the process, because it has produced results.