D&D 5E How Many 5Es Can There Be?

[Parmandur]

I don't think you can actually do that with piecemeal testing, especially when the time from document to survey is so short. They should have developed a beta internally, then looked in the world for 6 months or a year if they really wanted gamers to put it through the ringer.

I mean, they have put the main rules through the ringer for a decade.

yeah, we disagree on what a vision is. It takes zero vision to say ‘I want to come up something that is popular, so it sells a lot and I get rich’.

I think we had this in another thread too, I see Matt Colville having a vision and following it. I see nothing like that in the playtest. Does that mean I will like the MCDM game better? Not at all (too early to tell), but the designers follow a vision either way. WotC throws spaghetti at the wall and takes the ones that stick to it

5e has replaced ‘the vision’ with ‘the survey’, because the last time the WotC designers had a vision, they gave us 4e. Visions tend to polarize, WotC wants to be inoffensive, everyone’s vanilla.

Creating a game that addresses user needs and desires is certainly a vision. All sorts of companies pursue that successfully all the time.

 

[Reynard]

I mean, they have put the main rules through the ringer for a decade.

You still can't ask people to.test a 20 level class in 6 weeks.

 

[Hussar]

yeah, we disagree on what a vision is. It takes zero vision to say ‘I want to come up something that is popular, so it sells a lot and I get rich’.

I think we had this in another thread too, I see Matt Colville having a vision and following it. I see nothing like that in the playtest. Does that mean I will like the MCDM game better? Not at all (too early to tell), but the designers follow a vision either way. WotC throws spaghetti at the wall and takes the ones that stick to it

5e has replaced ‘the vision’ with ‘the survey’, because the last time the WotC designers had a vision, they gave us 4e. Visions tend to polarize, WotC wants to be inoffensive, everyone’s vanilla.

But that's the point. Vanilla IS a vision. It might not be a vision you (or I if I'm being 100% honest) like, but, that doesn't make it "not a vision".

While I do wish that WotC would go further in its changes, I cannot really deny that they've made improvements. Even something as simple as adding a round by round saving throw to Banishment is an improvement (IMO). There is something that does get lost in these discussions. There are a LOT of little changes in 2024e. The rewriting of effects, for one, will have a pretty large impact on games. Rewriting presentation will have a large impact. Hell, if 2024e is so vanilla, why do we see people so incensed over the changes?

Again, I'm not exactly jumping for joy with 2024. I'll admit to that. I think they should go further. But, again, the fandom has spoken. WE'RE WRONG. Fans don't want the changes we want. It's that simple. It doesn't matter how right (or wrong) we are. The fandom has said, "NOPE".

After YEARS of everyone bitching how WotC doesn't listen to fans, I find it really ironic that much the same people are now bitching that WotC listens too much.

 

[mamba]

Creating a game that addresses user needs and desires is certainly a vision.

as I said, we disagree on what a vision is. Call it a mission statement, call it a goal, either one is fine with me

All sorts of companies pursue that successfully all the time.

sure, plenty do, nothing wrong with doing so. You can pursue things that are not a vision too though, so that in and of itself does not make it a vision

Ultimately we agree on what WotC wants to accomplish, whether that is a vision or a goal does not change what that is (and what it isn’t)

 

[Parmandur]

as I said, we disagree on what a vision is. Call it a mission statement, call it a goal, either one is fine with me


sure, plenty do, nothing wrong with doing so. You can pursue things that are not a vision too though, so that in and of itself does not make it a vision

Ultimately we agree on what WotC wants to accomplish, whether that is a vision or a goal does not change what that is (and what it isn’t)

Boiling down to semantics, but a vision is "the ability to think about or plan the future with imagination or wisdom." The path if data based pursuit of user satisfaction is certainly wise, and I see plenty of imagination at play, particularly in the A-B testing phase. So "vision" certainly applies.

 

[mamba]

There are a LOT of little changes in 2024e.

yes, some for the better, some for the worse, all without an overarching direction (which is what I would call a vision)

The rewriting of effects, for one, will have a pretty large impact on games. Rewriting presentation will have a large impact. Hell, if 2024e is so vanilla, why do we see people so incensed over the changes?

beats me, if I am incensed (I am more disappointed imo), then it is about the lack of bigger changes.

To me we are mostly discussing what color lipstick to put on the proverbial pig at this point. Anything that was more than that has been purged by now. The new directions seems to be that we now sometimes get suggestions to replace the pig with a warthog instead

But, again, the fandom has spoken. WE'RE WRONG. Fans don't want the changes we want.

that does not make either one right or wrong, but it does make 2024 a bad fit for me, and I will probably not switch to it because of that

 

[mamba]

Boiling down to semantics, but a vision is "the ability to think about or plan the future with imagination or wisdom."

I like the definition, I am not sure I can attribute this to WotC’s behavior however, to me it lacks imagination at a minimum

 

[Parmandur]

I like the definition, I am not sure I can attribute this to WotC’s behavior however, to me it lacks imagination at a minimum

Every packet so far has been brimming with fresh ideas, whether they move forward or not. Imagination is not in lack here, neither is the discipline of wisdom to drop something that doesn't work.

 

[mamba]

Every packet so far has been brimming with fresh ideas, whether they move forward or not. Imagination is not in lack here

I guess what you call imagination, I consider to be directionless tinkering

 

[Parmandur]

I guess what you call imagination, I consider to be directionless tinkering

What is more imaginative than directionless tinkering...? As long as the ends are kept in mind, playing with stuff like the Dance Bard or alternate crit rules are imaginative.