D&D (2024) The new warlock (Packet 7)

[Charlaquin]

YES. Very much so. Because, yah know, IT'S A WHOLE LOT MORE DAMAGE WITH ACCESS TO SO MANY MORE ADDERS.

What adders are you talking about, exactly, that can be added to a warlock’s pact weapon attacks and can’t be added to eldritch blasts?

Come on man, this is disingenuous at this point. You know darn well they're doing a ton more damage that way. Why are you playing around pretending it's all same same?

I’m not pretending anything. As far as I can see, it’s the same number of attacks, at the same levels, with the same modifiers. I guess you could use a d12 (or 2d6) damage weapon, which would be a slight increase compared to Eldritch Blast, but at the cost of needing to invest 13 points into Strength with the way Heavy works in the packet. If I’m missing something, please tell me what it is.

LOLWut? It's the opposite! I am saying the CASTER which is a Warlock should NOT be outdamaging the NON-CASTERS with their own darn weapons!

Then why haven’t we been seeing these same complaints about the Warlock out damaging the ranger this past decade? It looks to me like people are fine with the Warlock doing high at-will damage, as long as they’re doing it with something the text describes as a spell. But the moment they can do it with a weapon, everyone loses their minds. What am I supposed to take from that besides “weapons aren’t allowed to do as much damage as spells”?

It's not. Objectively provably it's not. It's way more damage than with the cantrip. You know this.

3 more damage per round at the cost of needing at least 13 Strength and being restricted to melee? Seems perfectly balanced to me.

 

[Charlaquin]

The difference really starts at 9th level (where Spirit Shroud can be upcast for more damage, and Lifedrinker is available), and amplifies further at 11th.

Ok, so lifedrinker can add a bit more damage per hit, but that’s at the opportunity cost of an invocation. The eldritch blast Warlock could make up that difference with the 10 foot push per hit from Repelling Blast, or some other benefit from another Invocation the bladelock passed up in favor of lifedrinker. And I’m open to the possibility that lifedrinker is just too strong when thirsting blade grants a third attack. But in that case, I think lifedrinker is the better thing to do away with, cause it was godawful when thirsting blade only gave you two attacks.

As for Spirit Shroud, an Eldritch Blast Warlock could also benefit from that. Or if not, they could use that concentration on something else. 3d8 extra damage per hit is definitely very strong, but again, I think the problem is Spirit Shroud. If need be, just errata that spell, or “reprint” in the new PHB with significant nerfs.

 

[Kurotowa]

What adders are you talking about, exactly, that can be added to a warlock’s pact weapon attacks and can’t be added to eldritch blasts?

In theory, there are magic weapons that are better than Rod of the Pact Keeper. Actually getting them will depend on your DM, and goodness knows there's supposed to be some benefit to the risks, limitations, and greater investment in being a Bladelock. But the all knowing Treantmonk has spoken, and that's enough for some people.

 

[Clint_L]

It's obviously OP and you guys know it - you just want it anyhow. Anyone can do the math.

 

[Stalker0]

What adders are you talking about, exactly, that can be added to a warlock’s pact weapon attacks and can’t be added to eldritch blasts?

• Lifedrinker's d6
• Spirit Shroud's 2d8 (assuming 9th level)
• If you want to look at subclasses, Celestial warlock's radiant soul (through spirit shroud)
• Eldritch Smite's 6d8 damage (assuming 9th level), 12d8 on a crit.

 

[Scribe]

What am I supposed to take from that besides “weapons aren’t allowed to do as much damage as spells”?

That a caster with the best cantrip, and access to level 9 spells, should not in any way be able to melee at a comparable level with melee classes, and have more physical attacks than most??

That would be what I'm saying.

I mean I dont know how else to say this.

Its absurd for a CASTER to have MELEE ATTACKS that are on par or better than Paladin and Barbarian, at all. Like, do not pass go, go directly to Jail, absurd.

 

[Charlaquin]

Lifedrinker's d6

That costs an invocation slot, and if it is found to be too powerful in playtesting, it should be nerfed, not thirsting blade.

Spirit Shroud's 2d8 (assuming 9th level)

That costs a spell slot, and can be applied to eldritch blast. It is probably too powerful, and it should be nerfed, not thirsting blade.

If you want to look at subclasses, Celestial warlock's radiant soul (through spirit shroud)

That's dependent on Spirit Shroud, for which I direct you to the above.

Eldritch Smite's 6d8 damage (assuming 9th level), 12d8 on a crit.

That costs an invocation slot and a spell slot AND a crit. It's certainly powerful, but carries a very steep opportunity cost to balance it out. Regardless, if it is still found to be too powerful in playtesting, it should be nerfed, not thirsting blade.

 

[Kinematics]

What adders are you talking about, exactly, that can be added to a warlock’s pact weapon attacks and can’t be added to eldritch blasts?
...
3 more damage per round at the cost of needing at least 13 Strength and being restricted to melee? Seems perfectly balanced to me.

Eldritch Blast:
Agonizing Blast
Hex

Pact of the Blade:
Pact of the Blade
Thirsting Blade
Lifedrinker
Hex/Spirit Shroud


Technically Spirit Shroud is usable with Eldritch Blast, but you basically need to be in melee range to do so, so it doesn't really make sense.

Hex upcasts to longer duration. Spirit Shroud upcasts to more damage. Since this is a question of damage done, Spirit Shroud does substantially more damage starting at level 9.

The pact weapon can do more damage than Eldritch Blast, and also gains the benefit of a weapon mastery. I'll use Graze.

Then add Lifedrinker.

Note: A +1d6 to damage on a weapon is roughly equivalent to a +2 weapon.

Assuming a base 60% hit rate (which will be the same for both, since both sides use Cha for the attack/damage stat), and 18 Cha at level 5, 20 Cha at level 8:

Eldritch Blast:
2 attacks at level 5 (Hex) = (5.5 + 4 + 3.5) * 2 * 60% + (5.5 + 3.5) * 2 * 5% = 16.50 DPR
2 attacks at level 9 (Hex) = (5.5 + 5 + 3.5) * 2 * 60% + (5.5 + 3.5) * 2 * 5% = 17.70 DPR
3 attacks at level 11 (Hex) = (5.5 + 5 + 3.5) * 3 * 60% + (5.5 + 3.5) * 3 * 5% = 24.75 DPR

Pact of the Blade:
Greatsword (Graze)
2 attacks at level 5 (Hex) = (7 + 4 + 3.5) * 2 * 60% + 4 * 40% (Graze) * 2 + (7 + 3.5) * 2 * 5% = 21.65 DPR
2 attacks at level 9 (Shroud, Lifedrinker) = (7 + 5 + 9 + 3.5) * 2 * 60% + 5 * 40% (Graze) * 2 + (7 + 9 + 3.5) * 2 * 5% = 34.95 DPR
3 attacks at level 11 (Shroud, Lifedrinker) = (7 + 5 + 9 + 3.5) * 3 * 60% + 5 * 40% (Graze) * 3 + (7 + 9 + 3.5) * 3 * 5% = 52.23 DPR

So the difference in damage is about 5 points per round at level 5 (not a concern), 17 points at level 9, and 27 points at level 11. At levels 9 and 11, the weapon is doing twice as much damage as Eldritch Blast. If the Pact of the Blade setup just had 2 attacks per round at level 11, it would still be doing more than Eldritch Blast, by about 10 DPR (ie: the level 9 calculation).

And this doesn't factor in Eldritch Smite, though if spread out over the attacks needed to get a crit is just +2.7 DPR.

For reference, I have the Champion fighter currently doing 42.88 DPR at level 11 with a PAM setup.

 

[Charlaquin]

That a caster with the best cantrip, and access to level 9 spells, should not in any way be able to melee at a comparable level with melee classes, and have more physical attacks than most??

That would be what I'm saying.

I mean I dont know how else to say this.

Its absurd for a CASTER to have MELEE ATTACKS that are on par or better than Paladin and Barbarian, at all. Like, do not pass go, go directly to Jail, absurd.

But it's fine for a caster to have at-will ranged attacks that are on par or better than a Ranger or Fighter? You see the double-standard here, right?

 

[Charlaquin]

Eldritch Blast:
Hex

Pact of the Blade:
Hex/Spirit Shroud
Lifedrinker

You've given Pact of the Blade one more invocation than you've given Eldritch Blast in your analysis, so yes, of course the results are going to be uneven.

Technically Spirit Shroud is usable with Eldritch Blast, but you basically need to be in melee range to do so, so it doesn't really make sense.

Hex upcasts to longer duration. Spirit Shroud upcasts to more damage. Since this is a question of damage done, Spirit Shroud does substantially more damage starting at level 9.

That's a great argument for changing Spirit Shroud's upcast benefit, not for nerfing thirsting blade.

The pact weapon can do more damage than Eldritch Blasint,

By one die size, at the cost of requiring a 13 strength. That's effectively 5 point buy points since warlocks can otherwise safely dump strength to 8, so enough to go from 14 to 15 Charisma (before Background ASIs). Seems like a balanced tradeoff to me.

and also gains the benefit of a weapon mastery. I'll use Graze.

Ok, then I'll use that extra Invocation I didn't have to spend on Lifedrinker to take Repelling Blast - effectively a superior version of the Push mastery. At this point, you're up by 1d6 damage per hit, but we're otherwise pretty even by my count.

Then add Lifedrinker.

Note: A +1d6 to damage on a weapon is roughly equivalent to a +2 weapon.

Ok, so you've made a pretty solid case that Lifedrinker is a very strong Invocation choice. Stronger than, say, Pact of the Chain though? I don't know. I think some playtesting would be required to determine that. And if it does turn out to be too strong (which I'm open to the possibility of), then it should probably be nerfed. None of this suggests to me that there's a problem with Thirsting Blade.