Unpopular opinions go here

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Apparently Christopher Lambert and Sean Connery got along famously while filming the first movie and he refused to return for a sequel without Connery. I think bringing back Ramírez would have doomed the sequel no matter what, but they really leaned into destroying whatever goodwill they managed to build with the first movie.

Doing the whole movie as a flashback, or with just a bunch of additional Ramirez flashback sections, would have worked, too. It's a shame they didn't go that way.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Rise of Skywalker was awful.

Sir, this is the thread for unpopular opinions.

 

[Reynard]

Using CRPG and video game language to describe tabletops RPGs generally makes my teeth itch, but it has gotten much worse recently and I think referring to the Playtest Packets as "Patches" is too damn far.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

There wasn't any canon, there was one movie. And all it did was with a brilliant master stroke tie characters together in an operatic reveal that heightened the emotions of the film (TLJ does the exact opposite of that). I think the other important thing Empire does is it makes you feel like you need to see the next movie (Luke just discovered Vader may be his father, he lost his hand, and Han is captured by Jabba the Hut).

You really aren't remembering how the public reacted when Empire came out. People were furious.

It all seems coherent in retrospect, but it was being made up as they went along. (The Leia/Luke kiss, for instance, wouldn't have been in there if Leia had been planned to be his sister.)

At the end of TLJ it felt like there wasn't really any place further to go

Hard disagree.

We have never seen the Rebellion start from the ground up. Even in Andor and Rogue One, characters are joining a rebellion already in progress.

At the end of TLJ, the Resistance is, what, two dozen people at most? The galaxy has explicitly rejected siding with them against the First Order. This is the set up for High Noon in space, where the heroes have to round up what little support they can and defeat the First Order without a mega-fleet of starships, but a few scrappy heroes that we could conceivably all know by name.

Snoke is dead and the First Order is most reasonably going to be run by Kylo Ren, who isn't a calm plotter, but someone who has temper tantrums and regularly freaks out. He hates Hux and is almost certainly going to kill him and replace the First Order's administrators with a bunch of fearful toadies. The new galactic empire is going to turn into something much more violent and chaotic, unlike anything we've seen before outside of, maybe, the KOTOR era.

Meanwhile, the Force's "awakening" (lol) may be activating a new generation of Force-sensitive people across the galaxy, who won't be shaped by the non-existent Jedi Order. As far as we know, the Knights of Ren are the only game in town as far as guiding new pupils. (And hey, maybe we finally get to see the Knights of Ren in more than a fragmentary flashback!)

I came out of TLJ pumped about what we'd see next. Oh, my naivete. Fittingly, it was the last movie I saw before lockdown.

I don't think this was the master stroke critics feel it was. All it did was deflate something they had set up in the first trilogy (and it really is only meaningful I think if you have some other meta meaning invested in that particular plot twist)

Different strokes for different folks. I hate the Great Man Theory and I think it's a weird and lazy crutch for Star Wars to rely on -- it feels antithetical to the original movie, IMO, which was about the little guys standing up to tyranny. Galactic nobles squabbling over the future of the galaxy is done a lot more interestingly in Dune, IMO.

 

[Bedrockgames]

View attachment 302465

Thirty-eight issues from Marvel. The third volume of reprints kicks off with ESB.

[Insert argument about canon. How much of what used to be considered canon was nuked by the mouse in the past few years?]

Fair enough. I don't really care about expanded universe stuff or anything like that (I have only seen the movies, not read the novels or comics). But I feel like by the time Empire came out, in terms of established movie lore, they aren't changing anything major (they are more reframing what it mean for luke's father to have been killed by Vader, and making Obi Wan having concealed the truth from him).

 

[Cadence]

Fair enough. I don't really care about expanded universe stuff or anything like that (I have only seen the movies, not read the novels or comics).

I haven't for decades and decades either. But grade school and middle school me was all over the comics

 

[Bedrockgames]

You really aren't remembering how the public reacted when Empire came out. People were furious.

It all seems coherent in retrospect, but it was being made up as they went along. (The Leia/Luke kiss, for instance, wouldn't have been in there if Leia had been planned to be his sister.)

I was too young when it came out so I will have to take your word and other peoples word (I was like four when it was released). I remember watching it for the first time and thinking the reveal was great. I also know a lot of movies imitated it. I would be curious what contemporary reviews and responses were. But I still don't think these are very comparable films in that respect. What Empire did was enhance the first movie.

Hard disagree.

We have never seen the Rebellion start from the ground up. Even in Andor and Rogue One, characters are joining a rebellion already in progress.

At the end of TLJ, the Resistance is, what, two dozen people at most? The galaxy has explicitly rejected siding with them against the First Order. This is the set up for High Noon in space, where the heroes have to round up what little support they can and defeat the First Order without a mega-fleet of starships, but a few scrappy heroes that we could conceivably all know by name.

But that isn't part three of a movie, that is the beginning of a new story. And it is a large scale political event, there isn't any clear line for the major characters the way there was at the end of Empire. The original star wars worked so well, i think in part, because of the ensemble characters who you follow on this adventure from its beginning, middle and end. I don't see the Last Jedi leading to a story like Empire led to. I do think you probably could have told a story connecting Last Jedi to the third film (and that is what they should have done), but it still would have failed as a trilogy because instead of connecting the three films, it is just a jarring shake up and new sense of direction (with Empire you have a shake up in terms of revelations, but those revelations illuminate the relationships of the existing characters and propel them forward towards a dramatic showdown, the Last Jedi is the opposite of that, it makes the characters relationships more meaningless because it is allowing its message to interfere with its story and characters----at least in my opinion, I am not saying this is a hard fact one can't disagree with. And keep in mind, I enjoyed last jedi. I was entertained by it. I particularly liked Rose. I thought she was a surprise because often when they introduce a new character, it can be difficult to invest in them. But she worked. I liked her and finn having and adventure together (I think the adventure could have been a little better but it was good). The stuff like Rey, Luke and Kylo, it all felt like it was there because of the conversations going on on social media. And if you aren't away of those conversations, everything in those scenes lose any meaning.

Snoke is dead and the First Order is most reasonably going to be run by Kylo Ren, who isn't a calm plotter, but someone who has temper tantrums and regularly freaks out. He hates Hux and is almost certainly going to kill him and replace the First Order's administrators with a bunch of fearful toadies. The new galactic empire is going to turn into something much more violent and chaotic, unlike anything we've seen before outside of, maybe, the KOTOR era.

I think the interesting change in direction, which I suspect Johnson wanted to commit to but was veto'd (again I don't particularly blame Johnson for the problems with the movie), would have been for Rey to accept Ren's offer of joining him. That would have been genuinely surprising. That would have played on the offer Vader made to Luke in Empire in a meaningful way, and that would have left me at the end of the movie needing to see what happens. All the stuff you are speculating, sounds like it could be entertaining, but I didn't feel like those were things that I needed to see at the end of Last Jedi. I had no real desire to follow because I didn't see anything emotionally meaningful that the movie was pointing towards at the end (which I would contrast with Empire, where you are left with Luke and Leia on the hanger with this sense of the fight that they are about to face).

Meanwhile, the Force's "awakening" (lol) may be activating a new generation of Force-sensitive people across the galaxy, who won't be shaped by the non-existent Jedi Order. As far as we know, the Knights of Ren are the only game in town as far as guiding new pupils. (And hey, maybe we finally get to see the Knights of Ren in more than a fragmentary flashback!)

And in another science fiction universe, something like this might be interesting. But a big part of the attraction to star wars is the jedi and the jedi order. Also the thing about this at the end, while it is an interesting moment, it just feel more like a statement about what Johnson feels the force ought to be. But it doesn't lead my mind to speculate on what is going to happen next (because what would happen next seems like a deeply complex socio-political development and not a clear path to a story like Luke finding out his father is Darth Vader and Han being captured).

I came out of TLJ pumped about what we'd see next. Oh, my naivete. Fittingly, it was the last movie I saw before lockdown.

I waited almost a year to see TLJ so I wouldnt' be influenced by the conversations about it online (I didn't want to be overly negative or overly positive). I enjoyed it enough. I liked the parts I mentioned. It was probably the most beautifully shot Star Wars film ever (and I loved many of the color pallets he chose). But I did not end the film with this feeling at all. I distinctly remember having no real idea where it would go or why I should come back to the next movie (it felt more like the end of a James Bond film, where I certainly might want to come see more Star Wars, but there wasn't a reason that made me have to come back and see the final chapter)

Different strokes for different folks. I hate the Great Man Theory and I think it's a weird and lazy crutch for Star Wars to rely on -- it feels antithetical to the original movie, IMO, which was about the little guys standing up to tyranny. Galactic nobles squabbling over the future of the galaxy is done a lot more interestingly in Dune, IMO.

I was a history student. Great man theory has been dead for a very long time. I don't have any particular like of it myself (I think you can go too far in the other direction of thinking invidiuals have no role in shaping history, but Great Man isn't a serious idea anymore (in fact when I was student, all grand theory was thought of as not particularly realistic---including ones that just invert great man theory). But all that said, I have no problem with myths and legends about great heroes, kings, and royal lineages (or Jedi lineages) in movies. I think it works dramatically. But that doesn't mean I walk out of star wars feeling some kind of enthusiastic support for great man theory. And this is part of my critique here of how we have become overly simplistic about moral messaging in films as a fandom. Content does not equal message. Star wars is a mythic saga operating in a genre. I can separate that from my ideas about how history functions.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I haven't for decades and
decades either. But grade school and middle school me was all over the comics

I recall people being into the novels when I was in middle school and high school. For some reason I just didn't have much interest in it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

it feels antithetical to the original movie, IMO, which was about the little guys standing up to tyranny. Galactic nobles squabbling over the future of the galaxy is done a lot more interestingly in Dune, IMO.

It is fair if you feel this way. I just see star wars as harkening back to a lot of myths, and really striving for more of a heroes journey.

Dune is a different kind of political saga. Star Wars very much feels to me more like King Arthur, or something in that mold. And the Jedi are even called knights. So I think while it is about a small rebellion battling against the vast evil empire, it is in a world where you have a chivalric order, you have good knights and evil knights. It is operatic, and not particularly nuanced like Dune. Dune is great because it is steeped in this historical sensibility that really breathes life in the world. But once you inject that into star wars, it loses that operatic quality for me. I want it to feel how watching Excalibur feels if that makes sense. Again, when I watch star wars it doesn't need to affirm my beliefs about politics.

 

[overgeeked]

Using CRPG and video game language to describe tabletops RPGs generally makes my teeth itch, but it has gotten much worse recently and I think referring to the Playtest Packets as "Patches" is too damn far.

Errata would be patches. The playtest packets are beta testing.