D&D General Requesting permission to have something cool

[Snarf Zagyg]

You keep throwing around these vague assertions of dissatisfaction. Without knowing how the poll was worded, what specifically they were asking, I think you're likely making a tempest in a teapot. Are some people unhappy? Obviously. Some people would complain if someone handed them $100 because they weren't handed $1,000.

To make the obvious historical comparison, there were a lot of people unhappy with 3e. Remember? Of course ... "a lot" really depends on how you define "a lot." Was it "the community?" Was it "many people?" Was it "some?"

Regardless, some percentage of people didn't like the direction of 3e. They preferred the TSR-style games. So what did they do? They got together and created the retroclones and OSR movement. Because there was some interest in it!

As much interest as there was for 3e/PF? Nope.

As much interest as there was for 4e? Nope.

As much interest as there was for 5e? HA HA! Not even close.

It was, and will always remain, a tiny percentage of the market. Because those preferences, while strong, are not universal. And that's okay! But while that's a small community, it's also thriving. And it's done a lot better for its participants than if they had spent the last twenty years expecting WoTC to reverse course and suddenly decide that the new version of D&D would incorporate all of that TSR goodness that they were craving.

 

[Remathilis]

And is in some ways about 1e's 5th level. Personally, I think they should have designed in all those missing levels between commoner and 1st level and that is was a huge miss that they didn't.

I have never liked the 0-level PC rules. To me, it's the equivalent of creating a group of lemmings and having them blunder into every trap, curse and monster in the dungeon (all while Yakkity Sax plays in the background) until eventually you reach the end by process of attrition and the lucky toon you are on when you do gets to be a level one PC.

I'm sure it's fun for someone, but it's a waste of time for me. Don't bore us, get to the chorus!

 

[payn]

To make the obvious historical comparison, there were a lot of people unhappy with 3e. Remember? Of course ... "a lot" really depends on how you define "a lot." Was it "the community?" Was it "many people?" Was it "some?"

Regardless, some percentage of people didn't like the direction of 3e. They preferred the TSR-style games. So what did they do? They got together and created the retroclones and OSR movement. Because there was some interest in it!

As much interest as there was for 3e/PF? Nope.

As much interest as there was for 4e? Nope.

As much interest as there was for 5e? HA HA! Not even close.

It was, and will always remain, a tiny percentage of the market. Because those preferences, while strong, are not universal. And that's okay! But while that's a small community, it's also thriving. And it's done a lot better for its participants than if they had spent the last twenty years expecting WoTC to reverse course and suddenly decide that the new version of D&D would incorporate all of that TSR goodness that they were craving.

You mean they managed to do that even though everyone only plays 3E/4E/5E???

 

[Oofta]

I have never liked the 0-level PC rules. To me, it's the equivalent of creating a group of lemmings and having them blunder into every trap, curse and monster in the dungeon (all while Yakkity Sax plays in the background) until eventually you reach the end by process of attrition and the lucky toon you are on when you do gets to be a level one PC.

I'm sure it's fun for someone, but it's a waste of time for me. Don't bore us, get to the chorus!

I'm planning on starting out my next group as 0 level PCs and an average age of 12. However, I'm doing it to establish some background and history, it's a role playing session or three. There will likely be a food fight at some point because it's a school setting but that will be it.

Not going to work for every group of course, but my players really enjoy this kind of stuff so we'll likely have fun with it. I just wanted the start of a long campaign to be something other than a random group of trained adventurers getting together for reasons.

 

[Oofta]

You mean they managed to do that even though everyone only plays 3E/4E/5E???

I thought people were only playing vanilla 5E with no 3PP support?

 

[Remathilis]

I'm planning on starting out my next group as 0 level PCs and an average age of 12. However, I'm doing it to establish some background and history, it's a role playing session or three. There will likely be a food fight at some point because it's a school setting but that will be it.

Not going to work for every group of course, but my players really enjoy this kind of stuff so we'll likely have fun with it. I just wanted the start of a long campaign to be something other than a random group of trained adventurers getting together for reasons.

To be fair, my real exposure to 0-level rules has been Goodman Games (particularly the 3.5 era version) which was a meat grinder of farmers until you get a real PC . If you can use level 0 rules to tell a compelling narrative, more power to you.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I thought people were only playing vanilla 5E with now 3PP support?

I have to admit, I have been VERY confused by the discussions related to 3PP.

It seems that the community demands these changes.
And yet, the community (in terms of DMs) refuses to allow 3PP with these changes.
Also, if no DMs allow 3PP, then there shouldn't be any 3PP, because why bother? It wouldn't sell.
....and yet, I feel like I've bought 3PP, and used it. And I know other people that do. And I've see tons of it for sale?

...I am so confuddled! It appears that there is a vast demand for products that people refuse to use, and, moreover, there is a vast supply of products that cannot be used in any games. I feel like economics has lied to me!

 

[TwoSix]

I've played with at least a couple dozen people over the course of 5E. As far as I can tell everyone was having fun playing. If people don't like a class or subclass they play something else. I don't personally care for warlocks and if asked on a poll would rank them low so I play something I do enjoy. Fortunately nobody is forcing me to play a warlock. For that matter, the Arcane Archer subclass of fighter is not my cup of tea and I would say I was not satisfied with it's implementation but it's quite likely my next character will be a fighter, just a different subclass. It's not like we're lacking for options.

I think this is a particularly salient point. You can dislike a ton of stuff in the core book, and still have a satisfying experience playing the game as long as you play the stuff you like.

I mean, say you find 9 out of the 12 core classes just absolutely unplayable and won't touch them. You can still easily play for several years just using the 3 classes you do actually like.

The nice thing about asymmetric classes and subsystems is that if there's some you don't like, you can just avoid them. I've used this anecdote before; were casters in 3.5 overpowered to the point of making noncasters superfluous at mid-to-high levels? Absolutely. Does that mean I didn't enjoy 3.5? Nope, I loved 3.5. Why? Because I only played casters.

 

[TwoSix]

I'm planning on starting out my next group as 0 level PCs and an average age of 12. However, I'm doing it to establish some background and history, it's a role playing session or three. There will likely be a food fight at some point because it's a school setting but that will be it.

Not going to work for every group of course, but my players really enjoy this kind of stuff so we'll likely have fun with it. I just wanted the start of a long campaign to be something other than a random group of trained adventurers getting together for reasons.

Yea, 0 level play can be really fun. You have to start off focusing on social connections, not just adventuring, and lean in on giving the characters experiences that lead them to make a 1st level class choice in the narrative.

Just dropping them into a meat-grinder funnel a la DCC is also a way to do it, but definitely not the kind of 0 level game I prefer.

 

[Oofta]

I have to admit, I have been VERY confused by the discussions related to 3PP.

It seems that the community demands these changes.
And yet, the community (in terms of DMs) refuses to allow 3PP with these changes.
Also, if no DMs allow 3PP, then there shouldn't be any 3PP, because why bother? It wouldn't sell.
....and yet, I feel like I've bought 3PP, and used it. And I know other people that do. And I've see tons of it for sale?

...I am so confuddled! It appears that there is a vast demand for products that people refuse to use, and, moreover, there is a vast supply of products that cannot be used in any games. I feel like economics has lied to me!

Perhaps it's just that the DMs don't allow the specific 3PP that allows fighters to sever the fourth wall because they are just so darned skilled? After all, the PC should be able to attack the DM if the DM makes a decision that limits the mythic fighter in any way! If my fighter can't chop a mountain in half, they're not powerful enough!