D&D General Requesting permission to have something cool

MuhVerisimilitude

Adventurer
There are people here who argue that the martial classes must remain strictly "realistic" even at absurd levels of play. While I strongly disagree with their arguments, I agree with one particular thing: The future "potential" of a class colours the play experience.

I believe this is why the tier argument does not work. That is: A martial class cannot transcend from being "mundane" to "mythic", because future mythic potential colours the mundane experience, unless the mythic element is entirely optional.
Clarification: Someone proposes a martial that transcends from being fairly realistic at levels 1-10 and then gains blatantly unrealistic abilities at higher levels. This is a good solution to the balance problem, but it is an example of what I mean with the "tier argument" above.

An ability you will get, even at a level you will never reach, affects the current play experience. You know that at some point you WILL have a particular ability. An ability in potentia. This is why it always feels amazing to play a caster, because you know that only GM fiat can prevent you from learning a particular spell at a particular level. Want Simulacrum? Pick it. Want Wish? Pick it. Yeah sure you might not actually survive that far in the game, but that's not really important. You know that you absolutely will be amazing at high levels.

It is also why it can feel bad to play a martial: You know that at level 20 you will have pretty much nothing that you didn't already have. Sure some numbers might be higher, you might have a few more attacks, but there is nothing "concrete" about these improvements. A wizard with Wall of Force knows what he can do with his magic. You might have a cool magic item, but emphasis on might. You never know what magic items you will get. Shrödinger's special ability.
So we have two different groups of people:

1: One group does not care that martials don't get anything cool, because if they got something cool it would make their play experience worse

2: Another group feels like the fact that martials don't get anything cool makes their gameplay experience worse, because there is nothing to look forward to as you level up.

The way the system currently works is that casters are allowed to have impactful abilities while martials are not, and that even the addition of abilities at higher levels is not OK (according to some people), because it colours the player experience of the people who want fighters to remain "mundane".

I believe that for this reason the only reasonable solution to the balance problem is to have an entirely separate martial class that is essentially an "unchained" fighter, one that is properly balanced against the the stronger classes.
 
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Scribe

Legend
I believe that for this reason the only reasonable solution to the balance problem is to have an entirely separate martial class that is essentially an "unchained" fighter, one that is properly balanced against the the stronger classes. My absolutely ideal solution is to bundle all martials into a sidekick category of classes and then make new proper martials to take their place. This allows people who want to play sidekicks to do so, while allowing people who don't care about that to play the real martials.

You were doing OK, till here.

I think the answer is, there is a gap for a Mythical/Magical/Supernatural Fighter, that maintains the same level of Damage potential, yet has access to a mechanic or system which for lack of a better term, grants 'magical' power, starting a level 1. We just wont call it magic, because otherwise there are subclasses that already do that.

This is the character of various genres of film and anime.
 

MuhVerisimilitude

Adventurer
You were doing OK, till here.
Yes this very subject annoys me, so I have to fight against my own tendency to write stuff that might be consider deliberately provocative. I lost that battle in the OP :p
I think the answer is, there is a gap for a Mythical/Magical/Supernatural Fighter, that maintains the same level of Damage potential, yet has access to a mechanic or system which for lack of a better term, grants 'magical' power, starting a level 1. We just wont call it magic, because otherwise there are subclasses that already do that.

This is the character of various genres of film and anime.
That's a good solution too. I just think it's essential that whatever solution is provided is something that is separate from the base martial classes.

A funny detail I started thinking about is that PF2 solves this by having a skill system that goes quite mythic at higher levels, but where each individual mythic feature is entirely optional. If you want to make a barbarian who can intimidate enemies to death you can, but it's optional.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
There are people here who argue that the martial classes must remain strictly "realistic" even at absurd levels of play. While I strongly disagree with their arguments, I agree with one particular thing: The future "potential" of a class colours the play experience.

I believe this is why the tier argument does not work. That is: A martial class cannot transcend from being "mundane" to "mythic", because future mythic potential colours the mundane experience, unless the mythic element is entirely optional.
Clarification: Someone proposes a martial that transcends from being fairly realistic at levels 1-10 and then gains blatantly unrealistic abilities at higher levels. This is a good solution to the balance problem, but it is an example of what I mean with the "tier argument" above.

An ability you will get, even at a level you will never reach, affects the current play experience.
I'd disagree on this last piece, at least for myself. While it's sometimes fun to think of what my character could theoretically do at level X, such thoughts are completely irrelevant to anything that matters until-unless I reach that level; and there's no guarantee whatsoever that I will.
You know that at some point you WILL have a particular ability. An ability in potentia. This is why it always feels amazing to play a caster, because you know that only GM fiat can prevent you from learning a particular spell at a particular level. Want Simulacrum? Pick it. Want Wish? Pick it. Yeah sure you might not actually survive that far in the game, but that's not really important. You know that you absolutely will be amazing at high levels.
Thus pointing out a flaw of allowing casters to pick their spells. Also, GM fiat isn't the only thing stopping you from learning Simulacrum or Wish; a far more likely preventer is that the campaign just won't last long enough to reach those levels.

And I've never been a fan of planning out your character's 1-20 advancement path. Doing so makes far too many assumptions as to survivability, campaign longevity, and one's own ability not to change plans en route.
So we have two different groups of people:

1: One group does not care that martials don't get anything cool, because if they got something cool it would make their play experience worse

2: Another group feels like the fact that martials don't get anything cool makes their gameplay experience worse, because there is nothing to look forward to as you level up.

The way the system currently works is that casters are allowed to have impactful abilities while martials are not, and that even the addition of abilities at higher levels is not OK (according to some people), because it colours the player experience of the people who want fighters to remain "mundane".

I believe that for this reason the only reasonable solution to the balance problem is to have an entirely separate martial class that is essentially an "unchained" fighter, one that is properly balanced against the the stronger classes. My absolutely ideal solution is to bundle all martials into a sidekick category of classes and then make new proper martials to take their place. This allows people who want to play sidekicks to do so, while allowing people who don't care about that to play the real martials.
And so you'd just chuck group 1 to the curb in favour of group 2? 'Cause that's sure how this reads, given your choice of words.

Why not tone down the casters instead?
 

Scribe

Legend
Yes this very subject annoys me, so I have to fight against my own tendency to write stuff that might be consider deliberately provocative.

It works against your cause. I dont mean to continue a debate on this, but its the same as near anything else around here (and the blight that is social media). If you draw lines, people will happily occupy the side against you.

That's a good solution too. I just think it's essential that whatever solution is provided is something that is separate from the base martial classes.

I to wish we had a Gish.

A funny detail I started thinking about is that PF2 solves this by having a skill system that goes quite mythic at higher levels, but where each individual mythic feature is entirely optional. If you want to make a barbarian who can intimidate enemies to death you can, but it's optional.

So before PF decided to remove Alignment and thereby become dead to me, I looked at PF2 a lot, and yeah there is a lot that is cool with how its done.

Would a system of Mythic Feats, satisfy what you are looking for?
 


MuhVerisimilitude

Adventurer
I'd disagree on this last piece, at least for myself. While it's sometimes fun to think of what my character could theoretically do at level X, such thoughts are completely irrelevant to anything that matters until-unless I reach that level; and there's no guarantee whatsoever that I will.
I got the idea after seeing a few people arguing strongly against unrealistic abilities at a high level because they see martial characters as, like, action heroes from Die Hard and whatever. But yes it's quite fuzzy this whole thing.
Thus pointing out a flaw of allowing casters to pick their spells. Also, GM fiat isn't the only thing stopping you from learning Simulacrum or Wish; a far more likely preventer is that the campaign just won't last long enough to reach those levels.
I agree with allowing casters this flexibility is a problem. It would, however, still be an issue even if their spells were fixed per level. It would just be more limited in scope. Instead of knowing that "you could pick Fireball" you would know that "you would get Haste"
And I've never been a fan of planning out your character's 1-20 advancement path. Doing so makes far too many assumptions as to survivability, campaign longevity, and one's own ability not to change plans en route.
It's not strictly about planning out the character in its entirety. The idea is that the character exists in your mind and it obviously can as long as you have familiarity with the system. You don't need to build your character up to level 17 to know that a wizard at that level will have high level spells.

Obviously a player who is new and knows nothing about the system will not care at all about this since they don't know what is coming.
And so you'd just chuck group 1 to the curb in favour of group 2? 'Cause that's sure how this reads, given your choice of words.

Why not tone down the casters instead?
I'd prefer a solution whereby casters are nerfed somewhat and martials are buffed.
 




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