D&D General Requesting permission to have something cool

Scribe

Legend
So, in the end - people seem comfortable with magic fighters sitting beside 'nonmagical' fighters, and we have quite a range of abilities we can give to non-magical fighters that are still 'realistic'. I don't see an issue.

This is the thing I was thinking.

Just design a subclass.
 

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Reynard

Legend
D&D is a game in which most participants inhabit the world and their characters in that world to some degree or another. The players imagines their characters and experiences the story of the game through their eyes. As such, the controlling factor of whether a "martial" can be "cool" is not based on the mechanics of the game, it is based on how the player squares how they see their character in the shared space of the story. A simple martial who faces down a dragon with sword and shield in hand a la the Red Box art is "cool" from the perspective of the player.

There is a cohort of people who play D&D who think that this is a problem that needs fixed by making sure the martial has as many options as casters do. That is a myopic view. That person may want to play a "martial" who is really just a caster with a sword-and-board skin, but I don't think most people who want to immerse themselves in the fantasy of the "martial" want that. They want to face down the giant or the horde of goblin or the wraith queen -- with grit and steel.

So if you absolutely must tell martial players they are doing it wrong, at least propose rules and tools to make that happen, rather than constantly talking about how the martial isn't a good caster.
 
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Cadence

Legend
Supporter
D&D is a game in which most participants inhabit the world and their characters in that world to some degree or another. The players imagines their characters and experiences the story of the game through their eyes. As such, the controlling factor of whether a "martial" can be "cool" is not based on the mechanics of the game, it is based on how the player squares how they see their character in the shared space of the story. A simple martial who faces down a dragon with sword and shield in hand a la the Red Box art is "cool" from the perspective of the player.

There is a cohort of people who play D&D who think that this is a problem that needs fixed by making sure the martial has as many options as casters do. That is a myopic view. That person may want to play a "martial" who is really just a caster with a sword-and-board skin, but I think most people who want to immerse themselves in the fantasy of the "martial" want that. They want to face down the giant or the horde of goblin or the wraith queen -- with grit and steel.

So if you absolutely must tell martial players they are doing it wrong, at least propose rules and tools to make that happen, rather than constantly talking about how the martial isn't a good caster.

It feels to me like it isn't being martial that's the big issue, or that options that are the big issue - it is what mundane is and what power sources are and who the distinction matters to.

In a world where folks are using ki or rage or sisu or whatnot I expect those users to do big things that would be supernatural in our world and at least Extraordinary (EX) in PF 1e.

I've said in another thread or two awhile back, that I want to know what the non-magic using equivalent of Olympic track and field and swimming and archery athletes of the game world are like. It feels like if the characters are doing physical feats well beyond what that world's champion specialists in those feats then they aren't mundane anymore. Some people don't think it's a problem if the martials aren't mundane and/or don't think it's a problem if the background Olympic athlete of the game world is well beyond our world's... and others do.

It doesn't feel like there exists a game where one can "balance" a fighter limited vaguely by our worlds physical things (ack, no, don't bring up falling damage! just go with it) and a Wizard who can reliably cast wish.

Does 5e even try to? (Insert person who thinks I mean the 5e martials are already supernatural compared to our world and vaguely balanced with wizards, and insert another person who thinks the opposite on both counts).
 
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Vaalingrade

Legend
Crushing your hope of getting cool or even interesting mechanics at higher levels keeps you from ever thinking you can upstage the casters who deserve to get those because they chose the right class. Thus keeping the game in line with the tenets of 'tradition' and 'verisimilitude'.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
An ability you will get, even at a level you will never reach, affects the current play experience. You know that at some point you WILL have a particular ability.

Not necessarily, because not necessarily, respectively. Many of us are more than capable of not worrying about fiction that will never happen. Our imaginings of what happens afterwards are not governed by the rules, you know.

Please don't waste your time telling other people what their experience will be. Speak for yourself, but don't try to push that on others
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
A lot of the lines between realistic and unrealistic are subjective. I could describe things I've seen in (unedited) clips that most people would assume are impossible. To that end, I'd argue that the lines of what a human being could do if they were the epitome of human perfection is likely dang impressive. Hold your breath for 24 minutes? Lift 6000 lbs? Pull an 8 ton vehicle? Catch a cannonball? Leap 29 feet? Slow a heartbeat to 27 BPM? Eat my ex-wife's cooking?

BBC world service had a show on free diving record holders a few weeks ago. Holy cow!

There are some things that a real world specialist can do as their only thing, and some things people have done but not repeatedly. There is no one in our world who has simultaneous gymnastic medals, heavy weight weight lifting medals, 100m sprint medals, and <insert several others>.

Would someone who could do all of those be supernatural in our world? In the 616/MCU/DC? (Feels like yes and no respectfully to me).

A game world where people can go a bit beyond our worlds human limits in several things and still be mundane feels great to me. I wish there was a nice supplement detailing some of those records (typical trained hobbyist, typical Olympic equivalent competitor, world record holder - and how risky they were).

Still not like reliably casting wish.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Should non-constructive replies be reported? I'm not familiar with how this forum deals with thread derailments.

Mod Note:
Nobody is required to be constructive, by the rules. In and of itself, being non-constructive isn't actionable.

There are times when people are non-constructive in particularly rude, insulting, or thread-crapping ways, and we may tell them to either get constructive, or take a hike, but they are being asked that largely for being rude, insulting, or thread-crapping.
 

MuhVerisimilitude

Adventurer
Not necessarily, because not necessarily, respectively. Many of us are more than capable of not worrying about fiction that will never happen. Our imaginings of what happens afterwards are not governed by the rules, you know.

Please don't waste your time telling other people what their experience will be. Speak for yourself, but don't try to push that on others
I don't see how what I'm doing is saying what peoples experiences are or will be at all.

I'm trying to understand why people have been objecting to high level mythic martial abilities even in cases where they themselves admitted they never play at that level anyway. And I realised when I was thinking about it that I myself also consider the future developments of characters I play, even if my character is only level 1.

They seem to be related and that's what I was trying to get across in my first post.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
You are correct. The fighter (and rogue, and to a lesser degree the barbarian) should NOT be mundane. They should be magical.

The fighter should never be "dude with a sword". The fighter should be "dude with supernatural ability who channels it into his sword". He should be born of the Gods, have dragon's blood in his veins or heir to the giant's legacy. He should breathe fire, sheath his weapon in energy, sprout wings and fly, and at 18th level have abilities that start "once per day, when you die..." The rogue should be walking through walls, disappearing Batman style during conversations, stealing hit points to provide him temp hp, or using supernatural aim to guarantee the next hit they make is a crit. The barbarian is riding this line already, lets push him over with rages that channel primal powers. There should be NO mundane subclasses and they should be looking at the bloodhunter and the monk for the level of supernatural ability all classes have bare minimum.

A cleric isn't a village priest. A rogue isn't a common pickpocket. A wizard isn't a local scribe. A fighter shouldn't be a town guard of infantryman. Mundanity is for NPCs.
I think that's a really strong position to design from - you have an opinion, you have something you want to create that doesn't exist in the 5e rules (maybe third party, but not the core), and you have outlined some concrete examples.

It may not be my personal cup of tea, but I think you have a fantastic foundation here outlining what sort of class you – and I suspect many others – would enjoy playing.

One approach, to avoid totally working from scratch, would be to look at some of 4e's Epic Destinies with martial bent and incorporate those into your homebrew/house-rule Fighter class at whatever level makes sense to you. Some of those, like Demigod or Undying Warrior, were really cool ideas you could mine.
 


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