D&D General Requesting permission to have something cool

I have to admit, I have been VERY confused by the discussions related to 3PP.

It seems that the community demands these changes.
And yet, the community (in terms of DMs) refuses to allow 3PP with these changes.
Also, if no DMs allow 3PP, then there shouldn't be any 3PP, because why bother? It wouldn't sell.
....and yet, I feel like I've bought 3PP, and used it. And I know other people that do. And I've see tons of it for sale?

...I am so confuddled! It appears that there is a vast demand for products that people refuse to use, and, moreover, there is a vast supply of products that cannot be used in any games. I feel like economics has lied to me!
Sometimes it's not the DM who refuses to allow 3pp material into a game session. I can imagine that there have been a number of D&D fans who decided to generate their characters on D&D Beyond, and found themselves unable to use the 3pp material they wanted to use because there was no means to import that material onto D&D Beyond.

I can imagine this is an IP issue. WoTC doesn't want it's D&D Players bringing in material from a 3pp source onto their D&D Beyond website. Especially material that puts theirs to shame. 😋 Hmm...I wonder if you can import material from DMsGuild to D&D Beyond. That would be neat, if it was possible. ;) WoTC does control the Guild to a certain degree.
 

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Then there should have been no problem with telling people, "Oh, you want to play a moderate to heavy armored martial character who is very good at killing their enemies dead? Play a Ranger. That is what you play to make that happen."

But instead, opposition to that--opposition to, as you have so blithely said, "RTFM"--landed us exactly where we are today. "Fighter" had to be at the top of the sheet no matter what someone actually wanted to play.


No, caster prestige class. Silver Pyromancer. Largely intended for Sorcerer, but Wizard and Bard can also do it, and EK/AT can as well at very high levels.


The technical term is an informal fallacy. It is not a fallacy due to the structure of the argument (e.g. the fallacy of the excluded middle is a formal fallacy because the form fails to connect the conclusion to the premises), but rather because the argument is unsound. For Oberoni, the fallacy is the claim that, because house-ruling/homebrewing/DM adjudication exists, any flaws in the rules aren't actually flaws, so the rules are always without fault. It is by and large a particular application of the fallacy of equivocation: flaws/faults/etc. are used in one sense as "errors or problems that have to be addressed," and in the other sense as "fatal problems that completely prevent play." When spelled out as such, rather than preserving the ambiguous terms, the failure to connect premises to conclusion becomes obvious:

1. A ruleset exists which contains elements that do not function as intended and thus cause problems.
2. The GM of any game can modify the ruleset to improve its function or address problems.
C. Therefore, no ruleset exists which contains elements that do not function as intended and thus cause problems.

The weaker argument, non-fallacious but also much less meaningful, is that "Rule Zero" etc. mean that no ruleset can have completely fatal flaws, because no flaw is so egregious that sufficient application of Rule Zero cannot fix it. But that claim is pretty risible--it's literally just saying, "If you work hard enough, no matter how badly made a game is, you can force it to be good. It just might take a bottom-up redesign!" Of course if you're willing to work for literally years, replacing every part and redesigning every element as needed, you can address literally all problems ever--but that's an admission that there are problems that do in fact need to be addressed, which was the point in question to begin with.

"You can fix any machine by replacing all of its parts" says very little. "No machine is ever broken because you can always hire a repairman" is fallacious--doubly so because the only reason to hire a repairman is to repair something.


The vast, overwhelming majority of my play, as a player, has been with people I did not know particularly well before playing, for a large variety of reasons. If you find a great group, then sure, friendships can flower from it. But my friend group isn't exactly enormous, and very few people in it are willing to run TTRPGs of any kind, let alone ones I am specifically interested in playing. It would be awesome if I knew literally anyone else willing to run something that wasn't 5e. I don't. Even people willing to run 5e, there's only two. Hens' teeth and such.

Haven't ever heard of the book, so I can't comment.


So, as is literally always the case with these things, you are confusing the goal here.

I don't want to make a game that does the things I want a game to do.

I want to PLAY a game that does the things I want a game to do.

The former is totally orthogonal to the latter--and, more importantly, even if I did the former, it wouldn't help me find a group. Which is something I looked for. For over a year. Gradually broadening my criteria until they became "for God's sake, will anyone run anything that can be massaged into something vaguely like what I would enjoy?" And the answer was quite consistent: No.

I tried. I'm not going to spend six months of my life on a heartbreaker that won't ever be seen by 99.99999% of the gaming community because people are creatures of habit and, to paraphrase Jefferson, all experience has shown that people will retain the things to which they are accustomed rather than doing something different, even if it would be better, let alone might be. "Better the devil you know," as they say.


It really isn't "so embedded", and this "you literally cannot please the people who are upset, so never ever bother trying" argument is pretty awful merely on its face.


When 46% of its players are dissatisfied with the Fighter class, yes, I think it's pretty fair to say that people are dissatisfied with the Fighter class.

They keep playing it because they like the idea, the concept, the theme, the intent thereof. But the execution is lacking. People are in fact dissatisfied. They also keep playing! Why would that be? Could it, perhaps, be what I've been arguing for years, which you have always consistently dismissed, that the design actually matters, even though people will continue to play something they find unsatisfactory?


"What are you complaining about? Banging on the hood a couple times gets the car going. Obviously, it doesn't need any repair work."

A machine that requires percussive maintenance to function has a problem and needs repair. That it can be cajoled into working through percussive maintenance does not mean there isn't a problem.


Is that, maybe possibly perhaps, because people aren't super interested in playing utterly unremarkable, do-nothing commoners? That when they hear the idea of fantasy adventure, they'd much rather be Aragorn than Nameless Rohan Citizen #37?

We tell stories about people who are interesting to focus upon. Farmboys whose true fathers are evil wizards leading the armies of the Empire. Young women whose inheritance is guarding the barrier between life and death. Mages marked by the evil of the dark wizard who slew their parents. Heirs to forgotten crowns and constructs yearning for purpose built by mad geniuses. Comfortable landed gentry who feel the call to madcap adventure...or to carry a burden greater than any other.

D&D bills itself as high fantasy high adventure. Has since at least 2e, probably earlier. Not really sure what you expected people would think they'd be getting. Planescape was driven, in part, by making a setting that melded high and low together, with the grit and grime of Sigil and the weirdness and power of the planes all in one package.
For the record, I was responding to @Minigiant in what you quoted, not you. I understand your situation, and I sympathize; there are games I'd like to play but can't too. Minigiant, on the other hand, has in fact found a solution for their problem that works for them, but is complaining anyway because they seem to see themselves as some sort of champion for the "under-served by WotC but won't accept 3pp" crowd.
 

I have to admit, I have been VERY confused by the discussions related to 3PP.

It seems that the community demands these changes.
And yet, the community (in terms of DMs) refuses to allow 3PP with these changes.
Also, if no DMs allow 3PP, then there shouldn't be any 3PP, because why bother? It wouldn't sell.
....and yet, I feel like I've bought 3PP, and used it. And I know other people that do. And I've see tons of it for sale?

...I am so confuddled! It appears that there is a vast demand for products that people refuse to use, and, moreover, there is a vast supply of products that cannot be used in any games. I feel like economics has lied to me!
I mean, I'm sure you know this, but it's because there is a very large contingent of players and DMs that are "official only", especially ones that favor (by preference or necessity) electronic play over in-person play.

Many people, unfortunately, don't have the privilege of playing with people who share all of their preferences in this regard, and are in the position of having to hope WotC will codify official material to suit their preferences.

And people can be stubborn! In one of my games, 3 out of the 5 players used various homebrew options, and absolutely loved having the options available. But 1 player wouldn't even consider it, and when it was his turn to DM, he was totally "official books only".
 


Yes, corporations clearly care about easily measured metrics, that they can make go up.

Like us, they are into seeing 'bigger numbers.'

The sad thing is, it doesn't necessarily make for a better game. Just wait for the results of the survey regarding Wizards getting more power, and Cantrips being improved across the board all receive 'overwhelming support'.
Yup. Satisfaction almost always goes up if you give PCs more power. Doesn't mean that's good for the game.
 

@Corinnguard @TwoSix

Despite the joke, I do get it. Obviously, there are people that won't use 3PP. There are many reasons for this- some were scarred by 3e. Some just like things that are "official." (Honestly, I don't get the one, but whatever). Some people play AL.

Point is, a lot of people do use 3PP. That's why there's so much of it. Because people make it, and people buy it. If it means that much to a person, then you can either create countless threads here that WoTC doesn't read arguing that WoTC needs to change ... or you can take the time to convince your table to use 3PP, or find a new table. Personally, I know what I think would be a better use of my time. YMMV.

That said, I do agree that issues regarding certain electronic methods of play (including, but not limited to, DDB), lead to more "walled garden" forms of tie-in, in terms of making it much harder, or even impossible, to use most homebrew or 3PP. Which I think is terrible, no good, and very bad for the hobby.

...but it's also very lucrative, and I doubt that my opinion on that will change anything.
 

I mean, I'm sure you know this, but it's because there is a very large contingent of players and DMs that are "official only", especially ones that favor (by preference or necessity) electronic play over in-person play.

Many people, unfortunately, don't have the privilege of playing with people who share all of their preferences in this regard, and are in the position of having to hope WotC will codify official material to suit their preferences.

And people can be stubborn! In one of my games, 3 out of the 5 players used various homebrew options, and absolutely loved having the options available. But 1 player wouldn't even consider it, and when it was his turn to DM, he was totally "official books only".

It's a matter of degree. Some people obviously allow 3PP or there wouldn't be any 3PP. However, some posters claim that no DMs allow 3PP. It's the typical "assume my personal experience is universal" syndrome.

What's funny is that at one point I floated the idea of using 3PP and my players rejected it. :( Admittedly it was to try taking the game in a different direction for a while (weird west or space fantasy), but still.
 



Depends on how you define "magic classes" WRT 4e. There were four definitively non-magic classes, the Martial ones (Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Warlord). But Primal and Psionic both had classes in them (Barbarian and Monk respectively) that involved supernatural stuff without being "magical" as the term would usually be used, and Assassin (technically the only class with the Shadow power source) had a version (IIRC Executioner?) that was pretty much bereft of magical abilities. Wardens were kind of a weird edge case, as they had magical auras or transformations without doing anything particularly spell-like; more mystical than magical, if you get what I mean.

That's something like a quarter to a third of all 4e classes. More if you exclude some of the wonky (e.g. Vampire) classes, or frankly terrible classes that never should've been printed (Seeker), or ones that should've just been builds for other classes (e.g. Runepriest should have just been a Cleric subclass.)
My definition of magical in this context includes overtly supernatural abilities, not just spells.
 

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