D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

[Micah Sweet]

Well then you already have this solved.

They thinks of themself as a champion of the "under-served by WotC" crowd. I've been over this with them before.

 

[Tony Vargas]

But I do have an answer to the OP question: a mundane high level fighter looks like REH's Conan, who can kill a pack of were-hyenas with bow, sword, and his bare hands.

Yeah, that's what's throwing some of us, here. That's a vision of what the D&D fighter looks like, that's outside of D&D. It's not self-referent or arbitrary or influenced by D&D or even subjective.

It's, like Appendix N, like REH prettymuch established the S&S genre, and then he died, and later D&D came along...

So ... Conan is not the D&D fighter, let alone the high-level 'mundane' D&D fighter ... precisely because he punches were-hyennas to death?

 

[pemerton]

This I agree with!

 

[Gammadoodler]

Is this partly bounded accuracy's fault? In an effort to keep everything within range, but HP keeps marching, even the lowbie critters just kind of keep being an irritation?

Bounded accuracy might play a part, but I expect the bigger factor is that there just aren't that many levers to pull to increase damage on a per attack basis, and once the enemy hp reach that threshold, there's not really any going back.

PF2e handles this with scaling weapon damage and attack bonuses that lead to more frequent and damaging crits. It's not bounded accuracy, but there might be some tactics in the approach that D&D could steal.

Edit: that and some functional AoE options

 

[Minigiant]

Bounded accuracy might play a part, but I expect the bigger factor is that there just aren't that many levers to pull to increase damage on a per attack basis, and once the enemy hp reach that threshold, there's not really any going back.

PF2e handles this with scaling weapon damage and attack bonuses that lead to more frequent and damaging crits. It's not bounded accuracy, but there might be some tactics in the approach that D&D could steal.

Edit: that and some functional AoE options

Yup it's that there were too many lever locked. It's bounded accuracy plus the desire for 5e to be "simple" in the base rules.

You see when WOTC went out to make 5e, they desired forit to be simple and basic to appeal to Old School fans and potential new fans.

This meant monster and the fighter only had

• Their to Hit Modifier
• Their AC
• Their number of attacks
• Their Damage
• Their Hit Points
• Their Saving throws bonus
• Their DCs

Bounded accuracy locked down AC and to hit.

• Their to Hit Modifier
• Their AC
• Their number of attacks
• Their Damage
• Their Hit Points
• Their Saving throws bonus
• Their DCs

"Fighters and evil humaniods and giants don't have special attacks. Control? Nah. Manevers is lock to a single fighter subclass"

• Their to Hit Modifier
• Their AC
• Their number of attacks
• Their Damage
• Their Hit Points
• Their Saving throws bonus
• Their DCs

Attack a lot. Sure. But only like 2 Attacks. 3 at high levels. Maybe 4 when the game is over

• Their to Hit Modifier
• Their AC
• Their number of attacks
• Their Damage
• Their Hit Points
• Their Saving throws bonus
• Their DCs

Saving throw bonus? PCs get 2. Monsters get 2 maybe 3... if we remember.

Congrads. What's the only lever for most monsters and the fighter all 20 levels of 5e.

• Their to Hit Modifier
• Their AC
• Their number of attacks
• Their Damage
• Their Hit Points
• Their Saving throws bonus
• Their DCs

There is a drawback to having your crunchy RPG lock most of the stats of a class and a major monster type between a small range. You only have a few knobs to play with.

The ogre could have lower HP but resistance to bludgeoning due to its fat body. "that's not old school". Oh well enough your MM being criticized for being full of boring sack of HP because HP and Damage is all you are allowed to adjust and have #PP take your potential money with their monster books or whole new RPGs with actual interesting monsters due to having more levers.

 

[hawkeyefan]

What I mean by GM's whim, is that it is not informed by the fictional reality. Think in the setting is X, but it is at GM's whim whether it uses minion-X, or normal-X or elite-X rules. The GM is not constrained by the fiction, as the rules do not represent the fiction in consistent manner.

You’re saying two things here. That “it’s not informed by the fictional reality” and “the rules do not represent the fiction in a consistent manner”. I don’t think these two things are the same. I don’t think the first is true at all. The second is true.

Whether or not that means the GM is constrained by the fiction… I don’t see how it affects GM constraint. That seems a separate issue.

No, I think it is just genuinely more convoluted. Having objective rules-fiction conncetion is just simpler than having to separately decide what rule element to attack to the fictional element every time.

Imagine you don’t care about this idea of monster stats always being consistent, always being the same.

The problem goes away.

Yes, agreed. It is silly that it is not part of the setting.
No, not in the same way. Hit points and hit bonuses are objective and at least to me they do represent diegetic things in the setting, albeit in rather abstract manner. Minion rules are not diegetic.

So all your ogres always have the same number of hit points? None of them are ever tougher than the others? Better to hit bonuses or maybe a slam attack that can knock people prone?

Minion rules are no less diegetic than HP or most other representative game mechanics.

No, that is not only thing the stats do. They also tells us about the setting. If a NPC has low wisdom, that will affect how I portray them, even if no wisdom rolls are made, if NPC has high strength that will affect how I describe their physique, even if no strength rolls are made.

But you don’t need the stat to do that. You can just describe the person. Also, wouldn’t your description of the “big” guy depend on who you were describing him to?

But yes, a big part of what stats do is to resolve interactions like you say. And I want them to do that in consistent manner, thus portraying a consistent reality that is predictable to the players.

There’s no reason for any of this to be unknown to the players.

Sure, and I'm pretty sure I said that much in this thread.

Yes, and you also describe others’ preference as convoluted and messy and a kludge. I don’t agree, so I’m pointing out why.

I haven’t yet stated that your method is restrictive and needlessly limited. That it’s a case of the tail wagging the dog. But I imagine you’d have something to say about that.

I have struggled at phrasing this before as well. What I want is not simulation in a sense that we need to be super concerned about realism or accuracy of the representation, but I care about the consistency and objectivity of the representation, and want a robust rules-fiction connection. I think I've called it "broad strokes simulation" before.

But there are different types of stats for creatures of the same type. Different orcs, different types of giants, different drow, and so on. There already is variety.

I don’t see what’s being “taken away”. Except one more tool at the GM’s disposal.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A dash in combat is 30 feet in 6 seconds (60 feet including free movement) for most fighters in 5e. A dash for a 250-350 lb dude whose main job is to push other 250-350 lb dudes around is 120 feet in 5 seconds in the real world (the slowest 40-yard time in the last decade is at 6.06 seconds).

We put our Offensive Lineman on a D&D grid and use RW dash distances and that dude is covering 600 square feet just in the path he's running. Add adjacencies and that number doubles or triples.

Basically in the real world, 6 seconds is longer than you think.

There’s a huge difference between freely dashing in more or less in straight line and maintaining that kind of speed when changing direction to cover more or less of a circle, especially when being opposed by persons intent on stopping you from doing whatever it is you intend.

Sticking with the football analogy in your post, take the fastest defensive lineman you want and see how long it takes him to cover the 10 yards to a quarterback when actually opposed by only 2 offensive linemen. It will take them almost as much time to cover 30 or so FEET as it does for them to dash 40 yards.

Here’s J.J. Watt beating a double-team to get a sack. It takes him about 4 seconds to reach the QB.

HIGHLIGHT: Watt Beats The Double Team For Second Sack

Now imagine him trying to get past 5 opposing people. Now 10.

IOW, a human warrior covering an area 315sq ft (10’ radius circle) in melee probably takes more time than 6 seconds, and over 700sq ft (15’ radius) would require breaking some laws of physics.

 

[pemerton]

This thread has been interesting in that Conan also seems to have gotten lumped into "not D&D" as well. Or at least his monsters are not 5e monsters.

That's certainly been my take-away: that if I want a Conan-esque FRPG, I should look elsewhere than D&D. What happened to the much-vaunted Appendix N?

 

[Minigiant]

That's certainly been my take-away: that if I want a Conan-esque FRPG, I should look elsewhere than D&D. What happened to the much-vaunted Appendix N?

Appendix N characters are now optional content because adjusting the basic rules to accommodate them is forbidden.

The D&D fighter no resembles anything.

Someone may like the D&D fighter but it doesn't resemble anything in any media anymore.

 

[Horwath]

John Wick