D&D (2024) I'm a longtime player and there really is only one thing that will stop me from switching to 5.X

[Ruin Explorer]

Focus spells, instincts, etc.. are all encounter based powers for classes in PF2. Skill feats act similar to utility powers.

That's not an AEDU structure any more than 5E's structure is AEDU. As someone who liked 4E I was annoyed by how little the ability structure resembled 4E, so you claiming it's AEDU is utterly wild. I wish it was AEDU!

You are definitely required to apply at will, encounter powers, and dailies against foes to survive severe and extreme encounters in PF2.

Which in no way makes it like 4E specifically. Ok.

PF2 is based on the feat swap, I have heard many folks refer to it as hybrid multiclassing since 4E. I didn't realize launch 4E multiclassing was called something different. I've never heard the distinction made before now. At any rate, PF2 multiclassing is like 4E and nothing like 3E or 5E.

Ok, that's clearer, and people have just been using dumb language and confusing you. 4E hybrid multiclassing is a very specific thing - it was very cool too (and again, originates in late 3.5E), but it's not the same as the normal multiclassing. I can see there's a limited similarity with 4E and PF2's approach to multiclassing though, as you describe. That's the only point of real similarity so far.

Because of the +level to all numbers in PF2, and the <10> critical system, the game CR is limited to your level. A hundred million goblins couldn't challenge a single level 10 PC like they could in 5E with BA. Entirely different assumptions in system math. This was intentional by the PF2 designers to specifically not play like 5E.

A large number of goblins would eventually wear down a PC in 4E - a lot less than 100m too. The <10> critical system is pretty different from 4E's approach in practice, especially with how the rest of the mechanics interact. The only real similarity is both have +level to numbers.

Based on the test sessions I played, PF2 played a lot more like 5E than it did like 4E, and as a 4E player, it was missing most of what I liked about 4E, even if it still technically has one thing I wasn't very keen on (+level to everything) and one thing literally no-one cared about (4E's default MC system).

 

[Vaalingrade]

What? PF2 has an ADEU structure, hybrid multiclassing, and tactical team oriented combat. It uses a level based band process to determine CR. It plays nothing like 5E at all.

How does PF2 have an ADEU structure?

In that Daily and Encounter-based abilities exist? Classes have the 'classic' D&D chaos of what works on what timers and even then the timers are in ten minutes, an hour, etc. there's not structure there at all.

The only real similarity between PF2 and The Good One is that there's been an effort to balance the classes with each other in terms of progression.

 

[Krachek]

Hundred of millions of goblins in a battle field, I would like to see that!

 

[CapnZapp]

The only way I would walk away is if the game reverted to 4E. That is the reason I quit Pathfinder 2

Truth.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Based on the test sessions I played, PF2 played a lot more like 5E than it did like 4E, and as a 4E player, it was missing most of what I liked about 4E, even if it still technically has one thing I wasn't very keen on (+level to everything) and one thing literally no-one cared about (4E's default MC system).

I think PF2e has managed to pick up the bits of 4e that people who disliked 4e disliked without picking up the bits that those who liked it liked. Which based on my reading of it leaves me entirely unsurprised but still is a really bad place to be.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think PF2e has managed to pick up the bits of 4e that people who disliked 4e disliked without picking up the bits that those who liked it liked. Which based on my reading of it leaves me entirely unsurprised but still is a really bad place to be.

My experience is quite the opposite.

 

[Starfox]

They had what seems to be perhaps 5-15 devs working on 4E's software.

They've said they have over 250 working on the 3D VTT.

Do we have any idea how Hasbro's Christmas layoffs will affect the 3D VTT?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Do we have any idea how Hasbro's Christmas layoffs will affect the 3D VTT?

So far, we do not, in part because of the secrecy and vague language around the 3D VTT. We know, according to Cynthia Williams, that earlier this year, they had 250 people working on the 3D VTT. We know, due to leaks that positions with the phrase "Digital D&D" in their title seem to be associated with the 3D VTT, and not with D&D Beyond or other projects. We did know who was in charge of the 3D VTT, but I've completely forgotten their name - I imagine it could be dug up. Obviously if that person is gone, and a bunch of people with "Digital D&D" in their titles are gone, then the 3D VTT is probably significantly impacted if not entirely compromised.

However, as of the most recent info, it looks like WotC is still hiring positions with "Digital D&D" in the title. That might be an illusion or "lag" as it were, of course. If it's not, my guess is that other parts of Hasbro/WotC ate more losses to keep the 3D VTT project going. It's got to be a hugely expensive project simply due to the staff numbers and the fact that it generates zero income for now. If it's still going, they have to believe the wild monetization they could do with it will be worth it - and even based on actual WotC on-record comments the monetization could be nuts - WotC themselves speculated about how they'd monetize but have mentioned:

1) A subscription to use the 3D VTT (given it is independent from D&D Beyond, presumably this would be also).

2) Selling virtual miniatures, both to the DM for monsters, and to the players for their characters. It seems like if there's a character generator, some armour/clothes/weapon/etc. features would be paid.

3) Selling map pieces to DMs who want to build their own maps. WotC seem to be considering whether they're going to give people free map pieces for buying adventures etc.

4) Selling adventures and other content to DMs, and perhaps also sourcebooks - though it's hard to see how they could avoid letting people use D&D Beyond material here, and there has been some suggestion of D&D Beyond integration - but it may well be they have their own system and sales, and owning something on Beyond might "activate" it on the 3D VTT, or lets you buy it very cheaply on the 3D VTT.

There have also been some odd hints about buying smaller amounts of content or mechanics on this or D&D Beyond, and interestingly one of the recent positions they seem to be hiring for with the 3D VTT is "Lead Narrative Designer (Digital D&D)". Conventionally one wouldn't need any kind of "narrative designer" for a VTT - that's a videogame position - but perhaps the 3D VTT intends to have it's own campaigns? Perhaps even a solo "story mode" which is de facto a videogame.

 

[TheSword]

Do we have any idea how Hasbro's Christmas layoffs will affect the 3D VTT?

Not a jot, I would imagine.

 

[TheSword]

I’m surprised, our group has switched over to the new rules already and have been updating as the UA’s were released so we kinda already have switched. I was kinda expected most people to do that but it doesn’t seem to be the case.

When the physical books come out as the finished article that will lock things in. It’s been very well received by our group. I can’t see anything controversial about them at all really. Druid maybe but then we don’t have a Druid in the party.