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D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

Maybe drop the dice of two handers and double the Strength mod? So a greataxe or two-handed sword could drop to d10 but you can get double STR? Surely people can figure out how to multiply by 2?
double STR sound good, still drop in base damage is not needed that badly, do STR builds really deal that much damage?
Now that the -5/+10 part of GWM removed, some bump in damage is required.

to keep with only 1 die per weapon damage, maybe 2d6 can be dropped to 1d12 and 2×str mod
 

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Maybe drop the dice of two handers and double the Strength mod? So a greataxe or two-handed sword could drop to d10 but you can get double STR? Surely people can figure out how to multiply by 2?
1+1/2 is 1/2 shy of double.if a PC had +4 or +5 base mid taking that to +1.5 would be 6. Coupled with not adding Dex to damage without an opportunity cost like the weapon finesse feat it makes a huge difference that goes a long way to making up for the relative value of dex over strength.
 

Really what this comes down to is that, in real life, many of the actions D&D associates with "agile" characters, actually require a host of different physical abilities. I mean, in real life, there are many different applications of strength and it's perfectly fine to be good at one and not others- Olympic runners have powerful legs, but they don't exercise their upper bodies as much because the bulk would slow them down.

Female gymnasts weigh very little (under 120 pounds, I believe Simone Biles is 104), but they are typically stronger than the average man to be able to perform.

D&D has evolved into a system where characters are incentivized to focus on either Strength or Dexterity. A Fighter can be an effective combatant with very low Dexterity, as can a Rogue with very low Strength. However, the actual feats you'd expect a Rogue to be able to perform may, in fact, require at least above average Strength.

As a side note, D&D's jumping rules are completely inane as well, as they only take athletic ability into account at the DM's discretion, and giving incredible leaping power to the strongest humans, forgetting the fact that the strongest humans have a lot of bulk which would affect their jump distances or heights- the strongest man on Earth currently weighs 434 pounds, while Mike Powell weighed just under 170 when he set the world long jump record.

To steal a phrase from another poster, this creates "cognitive dissonance" where the mechanics of the game do not reflect reality.

D&D evolved to allow characters to specialize in key ability scores and to need other ability scores less. However that's not a luxury real people always have when they choose to excel in particular fields of physical ability.

In the case of the Rogue, they do have access to things like Expertise that help them with this- Expertise in Athletics is more valuable in the long run than a 20 Strength for the purposes of making checks. But obviously, not all the rules work nicely with this conceit.

The Athletics/Acrobatics divide is especially egregious when it comes time for a DM to decide which ability applies and when. As noted in this thread, some climbing is Strength/Athletics, but other forms of climbing can easily be Dexterity/Acrobatics.

The point:- D&D is built to incentivize you to not make realistic characters. If you want to be a Parkourista in real life you need Strength, Dexterity (and Constitution), Athletics, and Acrobatics. In D&D, if you want to be a Rogue, points/good scores put in Strength have diminishing returns over other ability scores, incentivizing you to create a potentially unrealistic character.

You can attempt to solve this by changing what ability scores mean and how they are used, but that only makes the cognitive dissonance worse, not better. You can give classes more special abilities to let them ignore the fact that there are 6 ability scores, but then you beg the question of why you need six ability scores in the first place.

D&D is not a good model for verisimilitude. For all the lip service is pays to the concept, it is a game first, and many of it's assumptions and conceits are based on the idea of making it play well as a game. There are going to be things that make no sense in reality. Once you go down the path of trying to change things in order for them to make sense, there is no end. At some point you have either made an entirely new game, or you leave something in the game you can live with, that still makes very little sense.

The easy solution is either to accept that a 10 year old kid with a 7 Strength can take levels of Monk and beat a grown man to death, or kill abstractions that allow characters to "get by" with some low scores, leading to weaker characters overall (unless you use increased point buy or something).
Lol! Yes, this is the most amazing description of the position I have heard to date! Yet I still can't seem to get off the merry-go-round! Wheeeee!
 

1+1/2 is 1/2 shy of double.if a PC had +4 or +5 base mid taking that to +1.5 would be 6. Coupled with not adding Dex to damage without an opportunity cost like the weapon finesse feat it makes a huge difference that goes a long way to making up for the relative value of dex over strength.
Whats with all this hate about adding Dex to damage, is everyone so keen about doing 1 damage per attack?
Wow, so much fun for a turn of play...

I will be 1st to say that finesse weapons need to get one or maybe even 2 die drop in damage in comparison to STR weapons and having longsword and rapier same damage while longsword has no property(do not say Versatile as that is a non-property) is dumb.
bump longsword to 1d10 and greatsword to 2d8 is we only keep 1×STR to damage formula.
 


STR weapons are too weak, or DEX are too strong, but I'm not in favor of lots of d2,d3 or d4 weapons.

I.E. if you reduce rapier to d6, then shortsword/scimitar needs to be d4 and dagger d2.
i'd err on the side of 'STR weapons are too weak', i do think they could've added something stonger than a d12/2d6 weapon but done them more in the style of the lance i think it was, d12-reach weapon, but disadvantage on attacking targets not at reach, giving it power but also more significant drawbacks than just being 2-handed.

also, i'm not saying DEX/finesse weapons are too strong per se but [as far as i am aware] why are all the non-bow dex weapons all straight 1-handers? you could've given us a d8/d10 versatile finesse spear-like weapon, or an alt-longsword as a 2-H finesse d10, the rapier comes out as superior simply because there's no viable competition for using finesse weapons, the other finesse weapons have niches but are not competion: shortsword/scimitar if you wanna dual weild, whip if you want reach, dagger if you want to throw it, but none actually offer a meaningful choice against rapier if you want a finesse weapon for damage.
 

Whats with all this hate about adding Dex to damage, is everyone so keen about doing 1 damage per attack?
Wow, so much fun for a turn of play...

I will be 1st to say that finesse weapons need to get one or maybe even 2 die drop in damage in comparison to STR weapons and having longsword and rapier same damage while longsword has no property(do not say Versatile as that is a non-property) is dumb.
bump longsword to 1d10 and greatsword to 2d8 is we only keep 1×STR to damage formula.
I think 2 handed weapons dealing 2x str in damage is not bad. But then 2 weapon fighting needs 2x modifier by default. And shields need to be a bot better.

I think just increasing damage to 2d8 for two handed melee weapons feels right. It is a flat +2 damage.

It would also allow versatile weapons to be 1d10/2d6.

And normal strength based melee weapons to be 1d10 by default.
Javelins could be 1d8. Just giving an edge to strength based melee (thrown) weapons.

This would exactly open enough desogn space to make weapon choice more meaningful.
 

Whats with all this hate about adding Dex to damage, is everyone so keen about doing 1 damage per attack?
Wow, so much fun for a turn of play...

I will be 1st to say that finesse weapons need to get one or maybe even 2 die drop in damage in comparison to STR weapons and having longsword and rapier same damage while longsword has no property(do not say Versatile as that is a non-property) is dumb.
bump longsword to 1d10 and greatsword to 2d8 is we only keep 1×STR to damage formula.
It was not just damage that is being adjusted for with the bonus and feat, the two combined offset the many ways dex is by far better than strength with a trivial to point out choice that avoids the endless debate and complaints. 5e changed the baseline and didn't do anything to offset the resulting problems caused by one attribute being so much better than the other. Simply rolling back to a known good enough state is not "hate". if anything , having that called "all this hate" shows the indefensible state currently in place
 


Yea, I don't see a need to nerf Rogues or Dex. But I also like making mechanics and home brewing.

So...

Finesse: you can use Dex to make attack rolls, still use Str for damage.

Rogues: sneak attacks are a d8.

Rangers: hunters mark is a cantrip, no concentration
Yeah I would be fine if only strength added to melee damage and there was no damage bonus to missiles from stats. You could build a damage bonus +1 to +3 into crossbows' base damage based on size, bring back mighty bows, etc. You could then add damage bonuses to fighting styles to give dex based martials a boost, or have two weapon fighting style add or substitute your dex bonus to damage.
 

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