D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Yaarel]

I mean, you just quoted the process. And I said barring expertise or some class ability, it caps out at 30 feet

My impression is, your houserule for Jump distances looks great. I want you to walk thru some more examples, so I can have a better feel for its contours. I am interested in implementing it.

 

[Maxperson]

My impression is, your houserule for Jump distances looks great. I want you to walk thru some more examples, so I can have a better feel for its contours. I am interested in implementing it.

I'm not sure how other examples will help. But I'll walk it through a little clearer.

A 7th cleric with a 14 strength and proficiency in athletics can automatically clear 14 feet with a jump. However, he has come to a 20 foot pit in the hallway. He decides he wants to jump it, so he backs up and gets a running start. The base is 14 feet. He has +2 in athletics for strength and +3 for proficiency, giving him +5 to his roll. He rolls(clack clack clack) an 18+5=23. 23/3=7 since we are rounding down and the extra 2 to the roll go away. He gets 14+7=21 feet of distance and makes the jump. If he had picked the feat that allows him expertise, he'd have had 3 more to the roll and gone 22 feet.

For high jumps I use a set DC since height is so hard to achieve. 15 DC gets you 1 extra foot and 25 gets you 2. The book heights are already kinda close to world record numbers, and jumping up is much harder.

Now I like things to be a bit more realistic than some folks, so if you want the PCs to jump farther and higher, you can divide the roll by 2 or even just let it be 1 for 1 when it comes to distance. And you can make it 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 for 1 foot each for height. All up to you.

 

[Yaarel]

I'm not sure how other examples will help. But I'll walk it through a little clearer.

A 7th cleric with a 14 strength and proficiency in athletics can automatically clear 14 feet with a jump. However, he has come to a 20 foot pit in the hallway. He decides he wants to jump it, so he backs up and gets a running start. The base is 14 feet. He has +2 in athletics for strength and +3 for proficiency, giving him +5 to his roll. He rolls(clack clack clack) an 18+5=23. 23/3=7 since we are rounding down and the extra 2 to the roll go away. He gets 14+7=21 feet of distance and makes the jump. If he had picked the feat that allows him expertise, he'd have had 3 more to the roll and gone 22 feet.

For high jumps I use a set DC since height is so hard to achieve. 15 DC gets you 1 extra foot and 25 gets you 2. The book heights are already kinda close to world record numbers, and jumping up is much harder.

Now I like things to be a bit more realistic than some folks, so if you want the PCs to jump farther and higher, you can divide the roll by 2 or even just let it be 1 for 1 when it comes to distance. And you can make it 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 for 1 foot each for height. All up to you.

I think your set up is excellent. And I will implement your Jump distances as-is.


If I were to tweak it, I would be more generous with distances. The idea is that superhuman leaps are ok at the highest tiers. For approximating reallife world records I would like to assume a +4 Strength and level 12. Then anything beyond this − +5 Strength and higher levels − can generate Jump distances that are fantastical.

 

[CapnZapp]

If you want to be able to do jumps like that, there is a class for it: monks.

The idea that every class should be able to copy or mirror everything another class can do bothers me. I don't want a homogenized game, and I don't want a D&D game where fighters are Goku.

Why shouldn't wizards be able to have 200 HP? Why shouldn't monks be able to wear plate mail? Why shouldn't rogues be able to make eight melee attacks in a single turn?

The ability to reach your opponents is a basic one, and no class should have to feel thankful because some high level ability "grants" them this ability at high level.

Every martial class needs to move about the battlefield, not just monks.

A fighter that can't actually reach the monster is useless. (Or drives everybody to ranged builds, which is not a great solution either)

So. Since the game makes it fairly cheap to get things like Misty Step, if you get your way and gatekeeps even the basic stuff from non-specialists... this simply means I will get hold of Misty Step (or similar) through a feat or some other source.

But that just means the notion that magic is the solution to everything gets entrenched. Much better is to be exceedingly generous in your interpretation of the core movement rules, and never bitch about one feet here or there. There is NO practical difference between being able to jump 16 or 18 feet. What the game asks you to do is jump 20, 30, 40 or even longer and higher. And if the movement rules won't let you do that, magic easily does.

Remember, being able to jump 16 feet all day long is not nearly as useful as being able to jump 60 feet once a day.

Since the end analysis is that any decently experienced player worth his salt will still get hold of the abilities he needs to reach the monster. Let the Rogue move (jump, climb) using Acrobatics. And let Athletics and Acrobatics be actually impressive, commensurate with what a high level character should be able to do.

The idea that only Monks should be able to do that is deeply problematic.

The idea that Monks should be grateful simply because they can move is even more problematic.

The game is just way too easy to game here. Nobody plays a slow plate dwarf in 5E, when you can make other choices that does not compromise your damage output too much and gets you really useful movement capabilities.

Remember, any round that slow Dwarf doesn't reach the monster is a lost round. You are much better off being mobile. Even if your DPR is slightly lowered, actually being able to deliver your DPR is a fundamental key to creating an effective character.

Abilities like Misty Step are soo useful. They're not needed in every fight, but they are likely a gamechanger (in the character's ability to actually dish out damage) in one fight every session.

Trying to restrict regular movement to some notion of real-life is just so very misguided, in the context of 5E. The only thing that accomplishes is driving martials into the arms of magic abilities.

Conversely, allowing martials to perform actually awesome feats of movement doesn't impact balance nearly as much as you think, since decently minmaxed martials will move about at will anyway.

The only choice is between "magic is the solution to everything" and... allowing martials to be awesome without magic.

Monks get to be specialists in lots of ways, but don't even begin to think "actually reaching the monster" is something only Monks should be able to do, because that's just not the reality of the game.

 

[James Gasik]

i'm convinced part of what constantly undermines the capabilities of martials as a whole is this insistence on splitting up all their capabilities into class exclusive abilities, oh no you can't jump better than average or have significant movement bonuses because that's exclusively something for the monk to be able to do, d12 hit die is only for the barbarian never the fighter, nobody else can have any sneak attack because that's the rogue's thing.

meanwhile casters share (it seems) like 80% of their spell lists with any other caster of the same energy source and a whole host of other spells with the others yet all manage to be distinct, the cleric isn't the only one who gets cure wounds, the wizards isn't the only one with fireball, bard exclusive hypnotic pattern.

Just speaking to movement by itself- Expeditious Retreat, Longstrider, Jump, Feather Fall, Levitation, Spider Climb, Levitation, Misty Step, Haste, Fly, Blink, Dimension Door- I could go on, but it seems like there are many, many spells devoted to improving and enhancing mobility in the game.

But if you don't cast spells, you're limited to a really small list of bespoke abilities. Sure, using those spells isn't at will. You likely need concentration, and the duration is limited. But the fact that even a weak caster like an Eldritch Knight or a Arcane Trickster could have a mobility option in their back pocket that blows anything non-caster classes have available to them is telling.

And the thing is, you don't really need movement options at-will. How many long or high jumps are you going to have to make in an adventure? How often do you need the ability to dash 100 feet or more?

If it's not often, then using a spell slot is perfectly cromulent.

If it is often, then there's a larger problem, as the vast majority of classes and subclasses lack superior movement options to begin with.

 

[Horwath]

you were responding specifically about them jumping?

yes, used 5E bonuses for atheletics and 3e math for jumping as any math for it lacks in 5e, so it was best available.

 

[Pauln6]

I'm not sure how other examples will help. But I'll walk it through a little clearer.

A 7th cleric with a 14 strength and proficiency in athletics can automatically clear 14 feet with a jump. However, he has come to a 20 foot pit in the hallway. He decides he wants to jump it, so he backs up and gets a running start. The base is 14 feet. He has +2 in athletics for strength and +3 for proficiency, giving him +5 to his roll. He rolls(clack clack clack) an 18+5=23. 23/3=7 since we are rounding down and the extra 2 to the roll go away. He gets 14+7=21 feet of distance and makes the jump. If he had picked the feat that allows him expertise, he'd have had 3 more to the roll and gone 22 feet.

For high jumps I use a set DC since height is so hard to achieve. 15 DC gets you 1 extra foot and 25 gets you 2. The book heights are already kinda close to world record numbers, and jumping up is much harder.

Now I like things to be a bit more realistic than some folks, so if you want the PCs to jump farther and higher, you can divide the roll by 2 or even just let it be 1 for 1 when it comes to distance. And you can make it 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 for 1 foot each for height. All up to you.

Nice. You do run into a snag that your jump distance is limited by your movement presumably?

 

[Maxperson]

Nice. You do run into a snag that your jump distance is limited by your movement presumably?

Oh. Whoops. I ditched that rule outside of combat. Outside of combat movement doesn't usually matter and you aren't pressured, so you can give it a better quality go.

 

[Horwath]

I'm not sure how other examples will help. But I'll walk it through a little clearer.

A 7th cleric with a 14 strength and proficiency in athletics can automatically clear 14 feet with a jump. However, he has come to a 20 foot pit in the hallway. He decides he wants to jump it, so he backs up and gets a running start. The base is 14 feet. He has +2 in athletics for strength and +3 for proficiency, giving him +5 to his roll. He rolls(clack clack clack) an 18+5=23. 23/3=7 since we are rounding down and the extra 2 to the roll go away. He gets 14+7=21 feet of distance and makes the jump. If he had picked the feat that allows him expertise, he'd have had 3 more to the roll and gone 22 feet.

For high jumps I use a set DC since height is so hard to achieve. 15 DC gets you 1 extra foot and 25 gets you 2. The book heights are already kinda close to world record numbers, and jumping up is much harder.

Now I like things to be a bit more realistic than some folks, so if you want the PCs to jump farther and higher, you can divide the roll by 2 or even just let it be 1 for 1 when it comes to distance. And you can make it 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 for 1 foot each for height. All up to you.

You math is similar to 3E, but dividing by 3 seems little weak. and you stated in your example with expertise, spending a feat(skill expert) as cleric to clear ONE extra feet is really a bad trade(insert Trump meme about worst trade in history of trade deals)

maybe with bounded accuracy and low(er) bonuses, comparing to 3E, maybe it should be +2 feet per 1 roll.
Then you could get those superhuman jumps of 60ft with 30 on your Athletics checks.
or add 1 for 1 your check on your base jump distance. I.E. with 20 STR and 30 on your check, it's 50ft.
or half your check on your base distance, 45ft(20 +1/2×30)

add Champions bonus to total as normal.

 

[Horwath]

Nice. You do run into a snag that your jump distance is limited by your movement presumably?

house rule that you are mid air if your jump distance is bigger than your move speed for that round.