D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Irlo]

The dragon problem, if it is a problem, seems to me to be more about 5Es anemic monster design than it is about bounded accuracy.

 

[Mistwell]

I agree, remote farmers far away might not train in military.

But we are talking about a town itself, where its citizens are required by law to train military, while growing up.

(Heh, in the Viking Period, kids start training for battle from around the age of 9, both male and female. It would be unthinkable to be untrained if ablebodied. Being part of the extended family militia to defend the family is a fundamental ethic.)

So basically "A town can beat a dragon provided I can change the terms of the town to be non-average but prepared to fight a dragon." That seems like a very circular argument to me. A town can beat a dragon because you created the town to beat the dragon therefore the town can beat the dragon.

Citizens required by law to train in the military while growing up GO OFF TO THE MILITARY. They are not in town - if they survive (most do not) they return only in their old age. That was the point of the warrior class civilizations like that. Too much food needs to be grown to support the town and those militaries to have everyone leave off in the military and somehow come back to the town too.

And hey those Vikings, that was a warrior class civilization which was raiding other civilizations to grab their food because they didn't have the population to grow enough of their own food because too many were off training or waring. That's not an average example of a "town". Most towns didn't have many trained soldiers. They were doing everything they could to just grow enough food.

 

[Yaarel]

I also saw that the trained folk of a town would often be out of town on patrol, so many wouldn't even be in town ready to battle a dragon suddenly swooping in for an attack on the town.

Of course. These are citizens who are running out of their homes and shops with a weapon in hand when a dragon arrives. It is an emergency situation.

 

[Yaarel]

So basically "A town can beat a dragon provided I can change the terms of the town to be non-average but prepared to fight a dragon." That seems like a very circular argument to me. A town can beat a dragon because you created the town to beat the dragon therefore the town can beat the dragon.

Citizens required by law to train in the military while growing up GO OFF TO THE MILITARY. They are not in town - if they survive (most do not) they return only in their old age. That was the point of the warrior class civilizations like that. Too much food needs to be grown to support the town and those militaries to have everyone leave off in the military and somehow come back to the town too.

I think the claim that a medievalesque town is incapable of defending itself to be bizarre.

The whole point of a "town" is walls and self-defense.

 

[Mistwell]

I think the claim that a medievalesque town is incapable of defending itself to be bizarre.

The whole point of a "town" is walls and self-defense.

To fight ordinary threats. Not armies. Not dragons. A band of brigands, some wolves, that they could fight. They could not fight off major threats - the nation level actual military had to deal with those, not the town level. 1000 people just isn't much. 900 of those people need to be growing food to support 1000. Of the remaining 100, some of them, most of them in fact, do jobs other than train and fight. Some will be religious figures, some merchants, some artisans, some transport, some builders, etc.. A 1000 person town just is not equipped to deal with a major threat. They flee major threats or get wiped out or someone bigger comes in and helps them.

 

[tetrasodium]

Of course. These are citizens who are running out of their homes and shops with a weapon in hand when a dragon arrives. It is an emergency situation.

I'm just going to cite this ~7 year old tweet here....

Spoiler: efficacy is only one important detail"

 

[Yaarel]

To fight ordinary threats. Not armies. Not dragons. A band of brigands, some wolves, that they could fight. They could not fight off major threats - the nation level actual military had to deal with those, not the town level. 1000 people just isn't much. 900 of those people need to be growing food to support 1000. Of the remaining 100, some of them, most of them in fact, do jobs other than train and fight. Some will be religious figures, some merchants, some artisans, some transport, some builders, etc.. A 1000 person town just is not equipped to deal with a major threat. They flee major threats or get wiped out or someone bigger comes in and helps them.

In a fantasy setting, dragons are "ordinary threats", especially if they inhabit nearby.

Depending on which region one is in, it might be the towns are constantly warring against each other, in which case everyone trains militarily. They do army training like moderns do middle school and high school. Time is set aside for it, and it tends to be fun, learning to wrestle, shoot arrows, and swordfight and so on.

Town citizens arent farmers, albeit the wealthy often have country estates and know how to.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

a Rogue is quite often backed up by a STR base class, usually a Fighter or Paladin (less often a Barbarian, but only because no one thinks of a Barbarian as a team player).

Wait what?

I’ve rarely seen a barbarian that isn’t all about protecting team mates and holding the line. Barbarians are commonly team players.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So basically "A town can beat a dragon provided I can change the terms of the town to be non-average but prepared to fight a dragon." That seems like a very circular argument to me. A town can beat a dragon because you created the town to beat the dragon therefore the town can beat the dragon.

Citizens required by law to train in the military while growing up GO OFF TO THE MILITARY. They are not in town - if they survive (most do not) they return only in their old age. That was the point of the warrior class civilizations like that. Too much food needs to be grown to support the town and those militaries to have everyone leave off in the military and somehow come back to the town too.

And hey those Vikings, that was a warrior class civilization which was raiding other civilizations to grab their food because they didn't have the population to grow enough of their own food because too many were off training or waring. That's not an average example of a "town". Most towns didn't have many trained soldiers. They were doing everything they could to just grow enough food.

This is very bad history.

The vast majority of Vikings were also farmers or other “townsfolk” jobs.

The only warrior societies where the trained warriors weren't also in the town (a town being a collection of farms with a central meeting place and maybe a hostel or inn for travelers if it’s close to a pilgrimage or trade road) were ones with a dedicated slave class, like the Spartans with their Helot slaves.

Most high conscription societies you only had people in the military for several years of thier youth, after which they go home and start making the next generation of farmers and warriors.

Even the “most don’t survive” line is false. In most battles, the majority of combatants survived.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

From what I was able to find on various message boards, the best argument I found on your end of the spectrum was, "the percentage of people in an army is roughly 5%, and increases up to a maximum of 10% during wartime. This means in a town of 1000, not currently fighting any wars, there should be approximately 50 trained guards. "

I then also saw, "The statistic is, in a medieval society, you're looking at about 90% of the population being subsistence farmers. 5% of the population being full-time military would mean that every other non-farmer is a guard. Remember that a town of 1000 people is actually not very big at all, and in an age where taxation is woefully unreliable, the government is fairly small. You'd be lucky to get 5 guards."

So the estimate seems to range from 5 to 50 for a town of 1000. They're not beating an adult Red Dragon.

When I imagine how many "town guards" there are in a 1,000-person town, I imagine a sheriff and their deputy militia... That's not a lot of people. And even if frontier families craft and train in the use of longbows, they are still low HD commoners who will scatter from dragonfear.

A Large (young) dragon may have to use hit and run tactics, but ancient dragons with incredible armor and destructive breath weapons will be more like Smaug, and will not give a flip about pesky short range missile weapons.

If I was running any Large (young adult) dragon that had decent intelligence, which knew that it could be hurt by volleys of arrows, I would have it use tactics that avoided such dangers.

1. Soar in quietly at night, using their breath weapon to alpha strike the target that would most demoralize the populace. A temple, lodge house, barracks, grain silos/food storage, the largest public house, inn, or stables, etc. They do not want to land yet and become a stationary target.
2. Many people will hide in their homes, but the guards/combatants will be mustering out to see what the heck is going on.
3. Rinse and repeat these flyback attacks for a short time, choosing the next most impactful target, which now includes a possible option where the combatants are mustering to share information and get orders. Killing a bunch of defenders at once is juicy.
4. Once the town proper has mustered a defense, the dragon stops attacking the town where the danger is. To really destroy the settlement, they just need to spend the night destroying every surrounding farm that supports the town. The dragon can land and eat people and livestock at this time, if they so wish. If the dragon is still fueled by rage, they can keep doing this all night.
5. The next day, the dragon can fly off to get some rest, or if they feel up to it, they can present themselves at a distance and lay siege to the town, taking out any groups running for town, or those trying to leave to get help. If the town has dangerous defenders, the dragon avoids them. They don't need to kill the dangerous ones yet. Destroying the loved ones of the dangerous humanoids is punishment enough.
6. If the dangerous humanoids go on a quest to kill the dragon, the dragon can let them come, staying out of reach. Once they are far away from the town, take to the air, circle around, and hit more targets wherever those "heroes" aren't.